Connect and Conquer
Connect and Conquer
2DT - Parenting Empathy vs Compassion

2DT – Parenting Empathy vs Compassion

[00:00:00] Kyle Jetsel: Sure. Cameron, can you hear me?

[00:00:01] Cameron Watson: Okay. I sure can. All right. You can’t have your speakers set as your microphone down. Doesn’t come out of your mic. It goes into your microphone. I

[00:00:16] Kyle Jetsel: see. You’re just a technical genius,

[00:00:18] Cameron Watson: aren’t you? I am, you know, I, I loads of training, all those years of experience that I can figure out why I can’t hear through a microphone.

[00:00:33] Kyle Jetsel: Well, you know, Hey, it’s only a challenge until you figure it out, then you know what to do,

[00:00:37] Cameron Watson: right? Then you’re all good. Yeah. Uh, so you, you actually are the one who wanted to talk about this morning’s topic. Tell me a little bit why and where to start.

[00:00:53] Kyle Jetsel: I think. You know, I asked you to, to detail a little bit more your empathy versus compassion, and I got it wrong.

Initially, I said empathy versus sympathy, I think, didn’t I? Yep. That’s kind of what I, and so one of the reasons I think I’m interested in this, in understanding your approach is by nature, I’m kind of a fighter and that doesn’t lend itself well to empathy or compassion. Right. I, I mean, growing up, I’m a, I was a rub some dirt on it and get back in the game.

Right. You know, and, and so I struggle a little bit with, I’m going to expose myself here. I struggle a little bit with individuals who want help, but then when you help them, they, and you know, it can help them. They, they dismiss it. Right. Or they complain and they don’t do anything about it. Or, you know, in some cases, vent, which to me, I posed a question a while back online, I said, what’s the difference between venting and complaining?

Oh. And most people said, when I do it, it’s venting, when other people do it, it’s complaining. That’s what they said.

[00:02:19] Cameron Watson: Ah. That’s fantastic. But I looked up

[00:02:22] Kyle Jetsel: the definition, and it basically said, complaining is when you’re talking about negative things. Venting is when you’re expressing, like, just getting something off your chest.

But what I’ve, what I’ve started to see is. More and more people vent, but they vent about things that are negative. So it’s complaining. It’s just right So this is a good example of how my mind works I find I don’t have I don’t feel like I have as much compassion and I want to have compassion, right?

Right I mean I haven’t I feel like I have empathy for people that are going through difficult times because I’ve gone through difficult times But I also don’t live there and some people tend to live there and I don’t want them to live there on them I want to help him get out, but I find myself running away from this, the compassion part of it and saying, take these steps, right?

I jumped straight to it. So I’m kind of curious about why you think, or your approach to empathy versus compassion. Okay. I want to adopt it is what I want to do.

[00:03:31] Cameron Watson: All right. Well, maybe, right. It depends. Yeah. Maybe. Yeah. So I’ll, let me share with you where I, where I started and where I. Uh, how I grew into this thing where I’ve learned a lot over the last couple of years, the things that I thought were, uh, virtuous and good things to do, uh, I discovered that I was doing a lot of harm and specifically, uh, a few years ago with my son who was dealing with suicide ideation.

And, uh, I kept trying to re I. I come from a human services background. I worked, I started working and volunteering with individuals that were affected by disabilities when I was 11 years old. And my first job was working, uh, side by side, uh, these individuals when I was 14. And then, uh, I did camps every year, uh, to, uh, for kids and for adults that were affected by disabilities, uh, clear up into my, my twenties.

Okay. So. I had a ton of training in a very abstracted way. I, I didn’t have any kids, I didn’t have any siblings that were affected by disabilities. I was a typical kid who was getting trained on how to deal with individuals who had, um, that were affected by disabilities that would sometimes go into crisis.

And when they would go into crisis, we were taught the crisis cycle. And the idea was, hey, Uh, if someone’s being stimulated, if they’re being stimulated into crisis, the appropriate response immediately is to remove that stimulus to stop it from going into crisis. I even taught this, uh, got to where I started teaching it.

I was the trainer and then I started training the trainers and, um, it, it was great in a lot of ways, except in my mind, I confused crisis With life because when you have a kid on the autism spectrum when they their life can look like crisis after crisis after crisis when in reality, that’s just life and so with my son as I as he was dealing with suicide ideation and when he was battling depression and mental health issues I kept going back to all this training which was hey Remove the stimulus, remove the triggers.

Well, the triggers and the stimulus for him was life. And so I kept removing life from him and it kept, it made it so that he was starting to isolate more and more. And I did a lot of harm. I did a lot of harm as a dad. I regret it. I feel bad. I do, uh, I’m grateful that that wasn’t the end of the story that we were able to learn and change.

Uh, in that process, I was also running a company and we had an employee who needed to terminate, uh, one of their subordinates and they just couldn’t do it. They, they kept saying, well, I have so much empathy for him and, and I realized as I’m listening to this person talk about this other individual that needed to be terminated because it was going to be good for them and good for the company.

They were, they had so much empathy that they got stuck and they couldn’t move forward in their job. They couldn’t do their job. And so I started thinking, I was like, well, what is the difference? Why, how, how, where’s the line where empathy becomes a vice? And then I, I listened to some podcast or somebody talk about the difference between empathy and compassion and that set me off on a little journey to discover Um, in my opinion right now today, I don’t think you can have too much compassion, but I know for sure you can, in fact, have too much empathy when you feel what someone else is feeling.

And maybe we should define it, right? Empathy is the ability to feel what someone else feels. Compassion is to be able to understand that someone else is feeling a way about you. And with a spirit of love, have compassion or have empathy, no sympathy to use your word from before to have sympathy for that individual.

And that doesn’t mean you get trapped with them. And it doesn’t mean that you have to act, but you want the best for them. And that, that shift, instead of being able to completely relate to the person. And understand and be trapped with them in their hole that they, that they found themselves in. That’s where empathy is.

You, if someone’s in a pit, empathy is you get in the pit with them. Where with compassion, if you have compassion for the person in the pit, you’re looking around and you’re trying to figure out how to help them out of the pit without being dragged down into the pit with them. So you recognize they need help.

You recognize that they are going through a lot of struggle. But you don’t get down in the pit with them. It’s a help. It’s a help up a hand up. And, uh, that when I started realizing that I started changing my language. Cause I, growing up, I thought empathy was such a high virtue. Um, and I have now discovered or I now believe that compassion is a higher virtue.

And while empathy is great, it’s a great starting point, it’s also a trap. And it can turn quickly into, um, a vice. And an excuse to not do things.

[00:09:49] Kyle Jetsel: A couple things I heard there which I want to repeat back to you and I understand. You mentioned removing stimulus when people are in crisis. But not everything is crisis, right? Life, in general, can’t be a crisis. People need to face things that are hard sometimes. It’s basically, let me, I want to make sure we’re clear on what I’m hearing for.

Yeah. Right? And so, when, when life itself is the crisis, we’ve got to be careful that we don’t remove every single, right? We have to, I think it’s, it’s natural for us to want to protect those that we love. Yeah. And a lot of times we remove, Challenges from those that we love and and like you said that can be harmful long term, right?

Because if people don’t learn to face challenges, I have a quick example of this This is very interesting to me because you’ve you’ve touched on something I have a friend who was married for a while and he came back that he ended up getting a divorce and One of the things that he said he was doing wrong, was he said he was enabling bad behavior from his kids and even his wife, and, and he was told this by a therapist.

Hm. Right? He was just, he was passively allowing things to happen because he didn’t want to, he didn’t want to be the crisis, that, he didn’t want to be the, the guy that’s, yeah, we can’t do that, right? He didn’t want to say we can’t do that. So he was constantly figuring out ways to allow everything, really.

Even to a point where he justified, you know, no discipline at all for his kids in saying, well, you know, I want it to be natural consequences. I don’t want me to be the, the discipline. I want the world in it. And he realized that, you know, once he. Heard the term enabling and was able to look back. He realized he was doing the same thing, right, on a different level.

It wasn’t suicidal or anything like that, but it was a situation where he was removing challenges, and sometimes he had to be the challenge. He had to say, hey, we don’t, that’s not how we act. That’s not appropriate behavior. He didn’t even want to be that, right? Well, it kind of, it kind of hit somewhere between the eyes, because I, I am good at certain things, and my wife was very good at certain things, right?

And there were things that she wasn’t good at because she would pass them over to me. Even if I wasn’t good at them sometimes, she knew I wasn’t afraid to face anything. I mean, if something needed to be done and she said, Kyle, can you do this? A lot of times I would say, well, if I do it, then the next time it comes up, I got to do it again.

And it’s kind of falls into your category.

And, and it would cause a pretty big commotion, right? Sure. And, and eventually I got there, but I remember going to some clergy at church one time, and, and this is, this is after I had, I had learned, she and I had discovered that some things, you know, eventually it got to a point where I said, you know, some things are hard.

You don’t know how to do them, but I don’t know how to do them either. So I’ll, you learn and I’ll help you learn. That way it can be your, in your category, and you can teach me. And she would say, yeah, but it’s just so much easier for you. Well, it really wasn’t easier for me, it was just that I would face it with a different spirit.

Hopefully I’m, is this making sense to you? It is, yeah. So I ended up going, back before she would, she would take on some of that stuff, I went to some church clergy and I sat down with, And was looking for counsel, right? Mm hmm. And I asked, and I said, hey, here’s my situation. Sometimes I feel like I’m removing too much, too much stress from my wife.

You know, and taking on a lot of things that she should, it probably falls in her category. And, and the clergy said something that was really interesting. He said, it, it seems like you guys are pretty happily married. And I said, we are. And he says, it seems like you guys make a pretty good team. And I said, we do.

And he said, what you’re describing to me sounds like teamwork. And he says, it sounds like you’re taking the big shot at the end of the game. And he says, and you’re good at taking big shots at the game. And you’re not afraid of those moments. He said, but you have stewardship over your family. So I want you to pray about it.

And I want you to consider different options. Right? Well, by this time we had, we had gotten to a really good places in a marriage. And so I, I realized that the teamwork we had was very good at that point, but we’d also gotten to a point where I would pass off certain things to her, right? Sure. But for years, I think what I was doing is I was trying to remove stress from her life and in doing so was creating a situation where she wouldn’t, where life was the crisis, right?

Just, just small things in life, even for my wife.

And that’s interesting, interesting,

[00:15:46] Cameron Watson: you know, so let me share a little bit, uh, what Sarah and I did, we, um, I, this is going to sound horrible cause I have eight kids, but I didn’t, I didn’t. I didn’t want, I didn’t care about having a big family. Okay. I was happy when we had one, I was like, woohoo, we got, we got our kid.

And I remember the day that that child could do more than I could get a dog to do growing up. And I was like, Whoa, that’s, that’s pretty cool. I wouldn’t have been able to get a dog to do that. And I know that strange, and I shouldn’t really probably share that, but that I remember that moment. Well, my wife, she had wanted to have a large family.

I wanted to be done by the time I was 35, which means we had kids one right after another. Every two years, we had another child. And I love them all, um, but I had a hard time. Well, here, let me, this is, this really happened. When we were first married, a sibling of hers had a child. And I looked at the baby, I’m the youngest of three boys.

I didn’t, I didn’t hold babies growing up, and now I’m in my young, I’m, uh, 20 years old, 21 years old, whatever it is, and my wife is like, Oh, look, it’s a precious thing. I’m looking at the precious thing, and I’m like, yeah. Okay, I know intellectually it’s precious in my heart, uh, didn’t care and then they wanted me to hold it and I was like, okay Uh, no, I don’t want to hold it and they’re like, oh, come on I was like, I don’t want to hold it and notice I’m calling it an it Okay, it doesn’t that’s not what you describe a human as you don’t call a human it, right?

So here you’re handing me This child, this baby, and I’m like, fine, okay, I’ll hold it. And I take the child and I don’t know anything about anything. And I put my hands around this small chest and I’m holding it. And the head just starts flopping around. And everybody in the room jumps forward and says, Oh, support the head.

And I’m like, take it back. I don’t want it. What did I told you? I don’t want to hold this thing. Right? I had no desire to hold the baby. I didn’t want my own babies beyond I wanted a kid, right? So now, growing, our family’s growing, and I made her a deal. I made my wife a deal. We discussed it, and it was a joke, but it was reality.

And it was, listen, you take care of them until they’re 11, and I will take over. Because I was not good at the cuddling and the holding and whatnot. But I knew I’d be great at the conversations and the, uh, discussions and the life lessons. Uh, I knew I could get that part down. Plus, I feared if I delay it long enough, maybe by the time they’re 11, I wouldn’t have to take over because they would just be used to, you know, dealing with us and the ways that they were dealing with us.

But she has held on to that heart. So anytime there’s a 11 plus problem, she’s like, Cameron, you’re up. And she could totally do it, but I’m better at some things than she is, just like she’s better at a lot of things. So as you, as you’re talking about that clergy, Oh, sorry about the balloons. I, Apple is awesome.

But anyway, uh, as you’re talking about the clergy’s advice about, Hey, this is teamwork, I, I totally get that. And one of the hardest things for me was when I remember the first time I’m supposed to protect preside. And provide. And I remember when she was talking about getting a new dishwasher or a new, maybe it was a new washing machine.

I can’t remember which, and she was looking at it and we didn’t have it in the budget. And I was like, Oh no. And I, I, we kept discussing it and she kept moving forward and I kept figuring at some point she’d realize we didn’t have a budget for it. And eventually I finally said. You know, kind of with a lot of anxiety, I said, honey, we, we just can’t afford it right now.

And her response was, Oh, okay. I was like, what was I worried about? Oh my goodness. I put all this pressure on being the one to identify that we couldn’t afford something because I, in my mind, I thought it was going to go a certain way. You know, we really were united in our goals financially. And so when I identified that we couldn’t afford it, it wasn’t me saying no.

It was me just going, identifying the situation as it was. So I loved what your clergyman said that, Hey, you might be the one to take the shot under pressure at the end of the game, but you’re, you’re still part of the same team that, that is really cool. That’s a great analogy for marriage.

[00:20:57] Kyle Jetsel: And I’m curious about.

You said a lot there, and I want, I want people that are listening to know, if we say something that offends you, that’s not the purpose of this right here. We’re, we are who we are. Yeah. I have to do that halfway through the time, don’t I? Just so people will know what you’re talking about, not messing with, I mean, she raises the kids until they’re 11, and I’m paraphrasing, I know you’re involved.

Oh yeah, I was. I love little dudes, right? Not necessarily babies, I didn’t know how to hold a baby either. And I remember when. My wife, when my first son was born, my wife said, hold him like a football with his head in your hand, like the tip of the football and I’m like, Oh, I got it. And so, you know, I can, then I can, you know, run through defenses and stiff arm people, right?

So, yeah, I got, I never made the mistake of the neck thing, but I was afraid when she said, when she said, do you want to hold, I never held babies either. Yeah, right. Babies are thing, uh, to me, the first year of any kid’s life is just a nightmare. Right? I mean, you don’t get any sleep. It’s just, it’s hard, but you get, you know, one and two and they can start getting around.

I am, I love goofing with little suckers and messing with them. Right? So, so there’s a little bit of a difference in, in the two of us there. Yeah. Well,

[00:22:26] Cameron Watson: here, let me, let me share with you,

[00:22:28] Kyle Jetsel: you know, you’re all

[00:22:30] Cameron Watson: girls, right? Say that one more time. Okay. You’re oldest kids are girls. Yeah, my oldest three are all girls.

[00:22:39] Kyle Jetsel: Okay, my oldest are boys. And boys are feral when they’re little. My boys were. I don’t know if all boys are. But my boys were. Okay, now, she used to look at me and look at them and go, that’s a huge thing right there. Cause they were wild animals, right? And so, I had to be pretty heavily involved in the training of the wild animals, right?

Otherwise they would, uh, you know, sorry for one time I went into their room and they were probably four and two, you know, or five and two, you know, I went into their room and we had this big, tall dresser and they were, had dragged their, their mattress off the bed onto the floor below the dresser and had devised a ladder system to get to the top of the dresser and we’re doing flips off the dresser onto the mattress at, at five and two.

They’re ready,

[00:23:40] Cameron Watson: but I’ve been doing acrobat

[00:23:43] Kyle Jetsel: jumping off, and I don’t know if they had hit their hard ground and realized that ain’t good once or twice before they realized the mattress would be right. So, yeah, and this was their natural inclination, right? So when, when, when Boris, I also remember one time.

We had next door neighbors and they had a, uh, they ended up having a daughter that was about the same age as my two older boys and they didn’t really care for us. I could tell, you know, everybody’s friendly to us because we’re friendly to them, but I could tell there was a little bit of a, you know, until they had a little boy.

And then about two years into his life, the mom came over one day and she said, you know, I thought you guys were horrible parents. Until I had my son and I realized all boys are crazy animals and I feel terrible. So, So there’s a little bit of a difference in where we came from as far as you know girls I’ve heard somebody say girls are hard once they hit 11 or 12 Boys are hard from the time they’re 0 to 11 or 2 to 11 or 12, right?

And I don’t, I can’t, you know, corroborate or uncorroborate that. I don’t really know, but it’s always kind of struck a chord with me because I have five boys and one girl and they were, all the boys were animals. My daughter’s an animal. Now that she’s in her, you know, she’s, they’re my twins. My youngest are now 15.

And she’s still pretty good, but I do understand that the different challenges that each faith that each bring with them. Right. Sure.

[00:25:26] Cameron Watson: So, you know, but one problem when I was, uh, just to, I did interact with my kids. I, I, I make it sound like I was, uh, never around helpful, but, um, I would do things that weren’t age appropriate.

So, for example, when my daughter, Elizabeth was two. We are at my mom’s house. This is a two year old and she wouldn’t let go of, she kept asking for something over and over and over again. And, um, so I just, without thinking of it, I just say, hey, Elizabeth, you’re fixating on that. Can you say fixating? And you know, this two year old’s like, you know what I’m saying?

And my mom and my dad are looking at me like, what are you doing? And I’m just talking to my daughter. And I didn’t realize they’re all giggling and laughing, watching me try and talk to a two year old as if she’s, you know, an adult. So, I figured things out over time, but man. I’ll tell you what, Kyle. My nieces and nephews are starting to have babies.

I get the attraction to babies now. I don’t, don’t know what happened. But there’s some kind of switch when I see, like, I have my niece, uh, Krista. She’s, her and her husband are just neat people. And their babies are cute. And I want to hold that thing. And I, I say thing, cause obviously I’m still, you know, it’s not a baby baby.

But I, I get the attraction. And so my family’s all looking at me holding these babies. And I’m just like playing with the babies like everybody else does naturally. It took me 25 years. Of marriage to get to where I hold a baby and I interact with it appropriately for a baby instead of saying, you know, TCIP is a protocol that, you know, it, I don’t, I now interact the correct way for babies, but it took a long time for me to get there because boy, that was not something I had ever.

envisioned and it wasn’t part of my flow chart as far as interacting with things or people. So, yeah.

[00:27:40] Kyle Jetsel: So you said you started to change your, when did your, when did you change from the empathy to compassion? When, when did that, was it a few years back or 20 years back? I’m curious.

[00:27:53] Cameron Watson: Uh, it was not 20 years back.

I, I was the guy encouraging everybody to have empathy until about five, five years ago, I started making the transition and then probably the thing that made it. So it wasn’t a true belief of mine was when I was, I guess, four or five years ago, man, I was running a company and that employee could not do her job.

Because she had too much empathy for the person she needed to terminate and you know, I, I’ve terminated a lot of employment over the years and I get how hard it is, but boy, I still do it. She couldn’t, she couldn’t bring herself to do it. So I did it. Um, and then I just made note that she wasn’t ready, but here, here’s the, here’s the sad thing at the time I, I said, Oh, she’s not management material.

And that, and that was not accurate. It was that she, she had put herself into a position where this employee, this person, her subordinate that she needed to terminate had become more important to her to, to, so she was more concerned about how it felt to be that person than what was in the best interest of that person.


[00:29:21] Kyle Jetsel: That’s it. I think now that I think we’re getting to the crux of what we’re talking about here, right? Okay. Which is. When empathy prevents you from taking action, that’s what’s best for you or other people, right? It, it’s, it does not help. Empathy has its place. It does. And compassion definitely has its place.

I remember one time, Shelly, something happened with Chloe, and I don’t remember what it was, and I went into, uh, What I’ll call my dad mode, right? Okay. My dad, my dad had a very unique and wonderful way of linking wonderful lessons for me to events in my life that mattered, right? And I can name a lot of different times, but one that I’ll share that’s really powerful is, uh, I, I was playing baseball one time and I, and I made an error that ended, ended up making us lose the game.

And I was distraught, you know, when you’re 11 or 12 years old and you lose the game for your team, um, that’s the end of your world, right? And my dad, I remember him kneeling down in front of me, he, I walked over to him and I said I wish the ball hadn’t been hit to me because then we could have won. I remember it like it was yesterday.

I wish the ball hadn’t come to me because then we could have won. And my dad kneeled down on my level and said, you know what son, that’s not the way we do things. You don’t ever want to pass your success or failure to anybody else. You want to be the reason he says you’re not always gonna win and you’re sometimes you’re gonna fail But don’t you ever pass that off?

He said you want to take the last shot of every game You want every ball hit to you? You want to be the guy throwing the pass at the end of the game to win the game? You want to be the reason he says now what you got to do is you got to go work You got to go prepare yourself so that you want to be that guy, right?

And you can tell it stuck with me, like this is a lesson I’ve referred to in my life hundreds and hundreds of times. Now, a lot of people would say, I know my dad made errors in games. My dad was a baseball player. He was really good. I know he could have empathized with me, and I know he did. But in that moment, he took that powerful event and created a link for me that I’ve never forgotten, right?

And so, and he did that multiple times throughout my life, I can recall multiple times where things went horribly wrong in my world, it was exploding. And he created a link. You know what I’m saying? He created a link. It was, it is such a powerful way to, it was such a powerful way for him to, to, to teach me.

Right? And so I remember telling my older brother one time, some of these things, and he’s like, dad never did that for me. And I’m like, what are you talking about? Yeah, I don’t, I don’t get this. Dad never did that for me. Right? And so I talked to him more and I realized his relationship with dad was different than my relationship.

And he had a better relationship with mom. Oh, interesting. Can you, can you remember when mom did some stuff like this? He said, Oh yeah. And he started naming off things, right? And it was interesting to me that I, that I realize now I didn’t, I didn’t know, but I think dad did it for him. He just didn’t make the connection, right?

He didn’t, and he made the connection with mom. And so I think there’s, but I also remember Shelly when, when I was talking to Chloe and something happened and I said, Chloe, and I tried to create a link. Now what we do is we step up and we face this right and Shelly said you can’t do that with Her and I said, what are you talking about?

She said she’s a girl. You can’t tell her to face the fire Right away. You can’t tell her to go to work and solve it you have to she said you let me handle it for a little bit and Then you can come in and help and but you have to stop everything and just have to cry with her for a while You have to let her get past She said, it’s different with boys.

Do what you do with boys. I love it. You know, and, and, and the reality is I’ve realized too, that it wasn’t just her Chloe. It was a couple of my sons needed that from her too, before I came in, swooped in with the lesson, right? Right. And so I think we have to really look at our kids and say, is this kid a face the fire, stand up tall, fight back kid?

Or is this a kid that needs a moment of me to. To cry with them, or to quietly, and let them soak it in, and then say… You know, when are you ready? And I think so when you say empathy and in compassion, I think maybe maybe we’re Some of us and I think i’ve gotten it wrong in the past. Go ahead.

[00:35:06] Cameron Watson: Well, go ahead Can’t see maybe we should shift the discussion to the prerequisites to both and then where it deviates because they’re built on the same thing Uh, okay, and I really believe they’re built on good things But one at some point one becomes an extreme and the other one Uh, I, I just want, can you, can you think of where compassion, having too much compassion is a thing?

Is it, can you have too much compassion where it becomes a hindrance or hard or the wrong thing? Is it an

[00:35:43] Kyle Jetsel: attribute? Well, see, that’s where I, that’s where, that’s where I struggle Cameron, because that’s where I struggle, right? Because to me, compassion is. Okay, let’s, let’s, to me compassion is, this is painful.

It doesn’t have to be painful if we create a plan and go get to work, right? It, it, it only has to be painful once, right? And then we can say, you know what? I, I, I don’t really, that’s not something that I need to be, uh, in pain over. That’s something that I’m going to have to, that’s life. That’s what I’m going to have to face.

Uh, right? And so my, I, I’m, I’m shh. When compassion becomes. And maybe it’s not, maybe I’m using the wrong word and I’ll give you an example in the autism world, get on there and they say, I’m struggling. My son is doing this. I don’t know what to do. I can’t take it anymore. I’m just stuck in this situation.

And somebody, people come to their rescue with compassion. You can do it. You’re a good dad. Keep. Keep going, it happens, but you’ll get better, it’s gonna get better, keep going, keep going, keep working, and I’m like, thinking to myself, and this is, I’m just gonna be flat out with you, Cameron. Okay. Maybe you’re not a good dad.

Maybe you suck right now. I don’t know. Maybe you are a good dad. Maybe not. Not everybody can be a good dad. Hey, aren’t there bad dads in the world? Yes. Are there bad moms in the world? Yes. I’m not saying who isn’t who isn’t. I don’t know. Right? I think we all have good intentions. But I don’t think we all make great decisions all the time, right?

So what happens is, is I think compassion without action tends to kind of get under my crawl a little bit, right? It creates this world of, I’m going to go online and complain or I’m going to, I’m going to complain. I’ll get, I think they’ll, they’ll put me up and then I’ll go back to my normal life of pain.

Um, yeah. Talk to me. Okay. I know I messed up. No,

[00:38:10] Cameron Watson: I think the reason that it’s frustrating for you. Is there’s so you can have compassion and not take action. We see this with God. Uh, he has compassion, but he doesn’t, he doesn’t interfere with our learning and our developing. So compassion doesn’t require action.

That’s the, that’s the beauty of it. And I think the reason that you’re getting frustrated is because someone is under the geyser under the reason of having compassion or empathy more likely. They’re lying and that’s what strikes you as counterfeit when they say you’re doing a great job, and they are not That’s a lot.

I don’t know. Well, I don’t know right if you don’t know then there’s something wrong with you You should be able to objectively look at a situation and go. Yeah, I don’t think that’s a great job And that, you know what that judgment, people hate that, but I’ll tell you what, if you don’t do it, you’re going to be a stupid fool and do the same things that are causing them trouble.

You need to be able to look at other people’s situations and go, you know what? I don’t understand it. I know that that outcome is not what I want. And what would I do that would be different from, from what they’re doing with the information I have, recognizing that you don’t have all of it. But if you’re getting onto a forum and some dad is saying, you know, I keep beating my kid and he won’t straighten out.

I’m not going to be like, Oh, keep doing it, man. Right. You’re not going to be like, keep doing it. That dad’s probably being harmful to his family at this point. Now here’s where compassion comes in and it’s built off of true principles. And that the true principle is to recognize that that individual has the ability to change and get better.

And where they are right now today does not. Mean that that’s where they’re going to be in five years. They have the ability to change and compassion is giving enough room for them to change. But it also means that you don’t reinforce the bad behavior. That, and I don’t mean to get all riled up, but I’m, I’m, I see it all the time when people are trying to build a relationship by being accommodating instead of standing on principles and saying, well, hey, look, you, you don’t want to go there with me.

Okay, I had a friend. And we, we were getting kind of close and he, he told me that sometimes his wife just makes him so mad, he can’t help himself. And I was like, what are you talking about? It turns out he was physical with his wife when he was mad. And you know what I wanted to do? I wanted to get physical with him right there.

And boy, was I riled up because his wife was just a sweet gal from the outside. I have no idea. Maybe she was stabbing him with a knife. I don’t know. I don’t know, but this I did know I had to remove myself from being very close to him until he was able to deal with his crap and, and not, uh, engage physically with his wife.

Now, some of you, I’m being very kind in my language. He was abusive to his wife physically. Right. Okay. When I, I had, and you know, what’s terrible is the temptation. The natural man temptation was like, Oh yeah, sometimes it’s really hard, sometimes it’s tough, in relationships. Is what, there’s a comedian, his name is Ryan Hamilton, he talks about being offered drugs.

And he’s like, this is the type of guy I am. I wanted to apologize for saying no. You know, that’s the tendency. Uh, we want to empathize with the other person. And that’s wrong. It’s wrong to say, Oh yeah, I totally can see. And I understand why you would be your wife. That’s not okay. And what on those forums, you know, maybe if it was true compassion, they’d be like, instead of saying, Hey, keep doing it, keep going, maybe it’s, wow, it sounds rough.

I, I’ve been there, I’ve felt that way, there’s hope, there’s ways out. If you ever wanna talk, I, I would, I’d be happy to share with you my ideas. To keep telling them, you’re doing fine? Man, that’s, that’s just, that’s building a very weak bridge that’s a trap. That, when, when your load is heavy, and you’re having to cross that bridge, it’s gonna collapse.

That’s not how true friendships are built. And, you know, you talk about this, and you joke around that I’m the guy who tells you you suck. A true friend is able to share with the other, with their friend, Hey, I don’t know about that, but here’s something that is true. And to still have compassion for them when they’re going through it and they’re in the middle of it and they don’t know any other way and they’re having to deal with the demons inside and the monster inside and the natural man and they are choosing the wrong path.

That is, it’s okay to have compassion, but you don’t lie and say, keep doing it, brother. You’ll figure it out. Just, you know, these things that are not true. You can show compassion by being honest. And on those forums, I’ve, I’ve seen some of them. And the reason I don’t like them, and I, I don’t, it’s because it’s not about principles, it’s about excuses.

And it drives me nuts, because I, I can have compassion about someone being stuck in this, the pit that they’re in. But if they keep telling me, well, yeah, but every time I start to climb out, someone throws a wad of dirt and it gets in my eye. And then I can’t see, and I get back down in the pit, and you know, one time I got out of the pit, and then someone shoved me back in, it was horrible, I, this pit, you know, I, I just don’t know what to do.

I, I can’t stand that excuse, the excuse mentality. I can have compassion for the guy in the pit, and I can have compassion for the things that led him to be in the pit. But I’m not gonna have empathy and go, oh yeah, life’s unfair, man. Someone dug that pit right underneath you. Well, yeah, who has the shovel?

Most likely them. Okay, and if it’s not them, then it’s mortality. And we all have our own shovels, and we’re always digging our own pits. We can all relate, but empathy is getting down in the pit with them and saying, well, maybe if we keep digging, maybe if we keep doing what we’re doing, the pit will get deep enough, we’ll come out the other side.

That doesn’t happen. The first thing you do when you realize you’re in a pit is to stop digging, and then, Maybe, maybe, and this is where I think the frustration that you experience and I realize I am like going off But maybe the issue is you’re recognized in the hole that you used to be in and you dug a Years out of the pit you used the shovel you stopped digging down.

You started digging sideways You made it so that each time you possibly fall in the pit you can go I’m back in the pit I’m going to take the stairs that I already dug with my plan and get out. And instead, they’re like, Well, no, we’re not going to dig on the stairs. I’m going to stay here.

[00:45:53] Kyle Jetsel: I think you hit the nail on the head.

I think what I’m struggling with is, and I just need to get over this, right? I think I just need to get over this, is when I’m talking to somebody one on one or in a group, I don’t, I don’t get this. And what I mean by that is, you know what I, I want to help people. I, you’re right. I’ve been in the pit and I know what it feels like and my pit has been deep and I’ve dug pits and been in pits that felt so deep you couldn’t escape.

So when I hear these guys in these pits, I just want to, in my mind, I say, you know, just like you said, that sounds tough. I know I have empathy there. I know what that feels like. There’s, you can have hope there’s a way out. If you ever want to talk, you said it, if you ever want to talk, hit me up, right? Now, I think what gets to me is I’ve done like stuff like that.

Man, I get roasted for, for attacking these people, right? I mean, I’m like, holy, it’s almost as if, you know, it’s, it’s the story of the rats, right? That you put in a bucket. Oh, the rat. It’s the, it’s the. Yeah, Rat Island, right? Where it gets overcome with rats, you stick them all in a bucket and they start eating each other, and the one that comes out is the rat eater, and now he kills all the other rats because he’s a rat eater, right?

Or they’re, or the, you know, or the lobsters that pull each other back out, you know, right? And I, and I just wanna, deep down, the compassion and the empathy in me says, Dude, man, you don’t have to do this. You can repair your relationship with your spouse. You can, you can work and you can have a great relationship with your kids.

You can, and that’s the part that hurts my heart. And so my, my heart leads me to what? And I’ll say, Hey, if you ever, I get it. I’ve been there. My son did the exact same thing. There’s a way out. I mean, let me, if you ever want to talk and I just get slapped, slobber knocked, man. And I’m like, okay, I can’t do this here anymore.

Right. And then I go on and I see these people struggling and I’m like, I type in, I want to help and then I delete it. Right? Because I’m not strong enough to face the return fire that I’m gonna get. You know, by the lobsters clawing at this guy, trying to drag him back down in. They’re trying to grab me too.

Yeah. You know, and I don’t have the, I guess I don’t have the courage to fight off the people dragging me. Down it’s I and I think that’s kind of what it is That’s what frustrates me right is that everybody else is trying to keep everybody else where they’re at that I think that’s what it is, right?

It’s not that people are struggling, but if they’re in pain It’s everybody’s trying to keep them there Everybody wants to do it together and it it’s so so I go on these pages and I just don’t have I feel like I’m Compassionless because I feel it in my heart And then I run away. So I

[00:48:59] Cameron Watson: think a part of it and I, so what, okay, you know, let’s talk about why someone might want to just wallow in the mud with other pigs, because if you’re wallowing in the mud and you’re suffering, and I, I love the deaf, I love the mathematical equation for suffering, right?

It’s pain times attitude equals suffering. So if you have a. If you have a 10 as a pain level and your attitude’s a one, your suffering’s at a 10, right? You’re, you’re not gonna be able to eliminate it with attitude, but your suffering’s a 10. But if your, if your pain’s at a five and your attitude’s awful.

At a 10, then, you know, now you’re suffering’s at a 50, right? The, I love that, uh, that mathematical equation and it’s not perfect, but by golly, I’ve seen it where you can be going through the same thing someone else is going through, but your attitude of looking forward allows you not to suffer, you will suffer a little.

You can’t escape that, but you don’t have to wallow. But when you’re with the group and you’re all experiencing the same. Suffering the attitude is what can get you into trouble and get ejected from the mud from the mud and I think that’s what you’re experiencing is what you’re, you’re like, yeah, you know what my situation is also an eight and you’re looking at all these other eights and you’re like, yeah, guys, we’re all eight and your attitude is, hey, let’s do, let’s move forward and you’re, you’re a one.

And so you’re suffering. Yeah. And they’re all, some of them, they’re all on the spec, a different spectrum as far as attitude, but some of them that they have a, they have a horrible attitude and they’re, they’re, they’re a 10 and then the, the pain, the situation is an eight and they, it is frustrating to them to see someone else going through the same situation.

But not suffering the same as they are, and that is what people tend to reject. They want people to have the same reaction, the same outcome for the same situation. And it gets us into trouble in society. It’s the equal outcomes. Well, the only way to do that is to bring everybody down. And the natural tendency of any situation is to eliminate complexity.

And when you see somebody who is not suffering with you, it’s better to reject them. It’s easier to reject them. That’s far simpler than the complexity of figuring out where you are and how to get to where they’re at. As far as those things go, I think, uh, there are some techniques and I’ve had this one technique that I used.

For over 20 years, and it is golden. I’ve taught to all my kids and my wife and my wife’s family. They like asked me to do a conference on it, on this technique. Are you ready for it? I’m really simple. Whenever someone says something negative because they’re in a situation and their attitude stinks and they say something negative.

Your response is, well, I don’t know about that. And then you say something that is true. If they’re suffering, they’re like, Oh man, you know what? My kid has, he, he did all art again with poop, you know, and there, there’s nothing I can do my situation. Is such that it’s never going to change and there’s nothing I can do.

I can’t get a relationship with him. He’s never going to hug me. I’m never going to feel connected with him. Life sucks. My attitude’s horrible. So my suffering is this big, but a lot of what they said where it was not true. So you say, well, I don’t know about that, but I do know that it’s a, and then you say something that’s true in this case, it could be.

I, it does seem like you love your kid. I don’t know about all that other stuff you said, but boy, it sounds like you love your kid. When you know what that does immediately opens them up because they just heard truth in response to their lie. And it’s hard, it’s hard for someone to not respond to truth.

And so when you say, I don’t know about that because you don’t really know. Then you say something that’s true. It’s not con, it’s not conflict, and it’s an arm around the shoulder and a kick in the butt, right? It’s a, Hey, I don’t know about that. But here’s the truth. And then there’s more opportunities to move forward.

And I started doing this with my relatives. I had, um, have a relative that has a traumatic brain injury and he was, uh, wanting to buy a house. And I think he had watched an infomercial on, um, how to buy real estate, no money down type thing. And this was decades ago and he, he was going to pursue it. And I’m talking with him and I’m like, Oh, that’s exciting.

How cool. And that’s how it works. Wow. And I’m just listening. I’m like, that sounds amazing. Right. Just stating a bunch of truth because it all sounded amazing. It sounds too big, too good to be true. Yeah. Did he have the ability to go execute it? Was that for me to say no. But as soon as he left, the other members of the family started talking about him, and they started saying, man, that guy, he’s so out of it, he has no idea, this would never happen, this is, and they started being negative, just going to town.

My response was, well, I don’t know about that, but I sure love Matt, right? I don’t know about that, but I sure love this guy. I don’t know about that. Sarah is the most beautiful woman in the world. I, I could state truth that was unrelated to this relative, and it was still true. And so by not engaging and not opposing them directly, it allowed me to maintain the relationship.

So much so that over time, the entire group stopped talking negative about this individual. My son, Matt, who’s, he’s now nine. He’s on, he has, uh, he’s on the autism spectrum. He. Is learning that when someone is incorrect, he doesn’t have to tell them and it is hard for him for the rest of us. We can be in the same boat where we recognize that what they’re they’re experiencing and what they’re expressing is wrong, but we don’t have to go directly at them and combat it.

In those forums, you know, if I was, if I was to engage, which I typically don’t, it would be, well, I don’t know about that. One, uh, one other story, uh, recently, uh, so we’ve been posting to YouTube and this guy, he posted a snide, just a yucky comment, and I started to flame him. It was kind of, I was like, Oh, I got it.

And then I was like, wait, wait, compassion, you know, spirit of love. And so I was like, I wonder if I could win him over. And so I treated everything he said as if he was Christ like and trying to help me. And so I thanked him for engaging, and then I thanked him for his comments and for educating me. And then I, I said, I still don’t understand cause I didn’t, I don’t agree with him.

Uh, and then I said, I really do, you know, I, I think it’s great. And then I, I, one of his side remarks, I treated it as if it was real. He said, uh, you, if you went to private school, you should get a refund. My response to that was, oh, I went to public school. So no refund coming. I treated it as, it was like, Hey, you should try and get a refund, you idiot.

I was like, Oh, you’re right, man. Oh no, I went to public school. I can’t get a refund. And by the time we were done with the interaction, he asked me for a job.

Back and forth,

[00:57:47] Kyle Jetsel: probably because nobody else could deal with it. And he thought this guy could deal with me. He’s a real good guy or, or he doesn’t know he’s an idiot. I don’t know. You never know. Right. Well, you were going to get those kind of, I realized. I’ve come to a couple of conclusions here, which I think is good for me, Cameron.

I think, I think my limiting factor is not, I think my, my aggravation is not in the fact that I’m not compassionate. See, that was my concern. You are, I did feel, well, and I was struggling with that, thinking I’m not compassionate because I’m aggravated. But I think I was aggravated maybe at my own inability to stand up and, and take the abuse as it came, right?

Which I need to be able to do, right? I’ve been kicked off so many of these things For telling people. Hey, you know, I get it. My son went through the same thing Hey if you ever i’ve gotten i’ve got a strategy that works If you ever want to chat right and I got I would get sometimes i’ll get hammered sometimes I get kicked off Right, and I think my aggravation was I didn’t like being kicked off.

I didn’t I didn’t like the the masses attacking me for you know, but I will I will suggest a couple things so So, you know, you talked about a couple of things there that I think are really interesting. What is modeling behavior, modeling compassion, and, and letting, and you know, your, the attitude towards your compassion, right?

I got a, so my oldest son, uh, when we were, we lived back in Texas many, many years ago when he was a toddler and we became friends with this couple who had a girl that was the same age as him and we became really good friends. When Alec, my oldest son, decided to go to college, I never went to college. My wife never went to college, but this couple that we knew from way back when did go to college.

They knew all the details, his daughter, they were going to pay her way through college. My son had to pay his own way, right? He had to do his own thing. But my son connected with this girl and said, Hey, I don’t really know how to do this. And she said, I’ll help you. Cause my dad is helping me and he did it.

And, you know, they engaged my son and helped him get into college. So they ended up at the same college and. She was so kind to him, right? And they were so good to him and treated him so, you know, one of the things to do is if you haven’t done it, find somebody that has or somebody that can help you, right?

And a lot of times people are, and so he kind of piggybacked and when he got to college, he immediately had a friend. Now after a couple of months of being on campus, he calls me, he says, Dad, I said, yeah, he says, this girl’s a complainer. Drove me crazy. I said, what? He said, yeah, I mean, she’s there on mom and dad’s dime.

She’s got all the time. I’m working. If I’m not at school, I’m working. I mean, his, his challenge was a lot bigger, but she would complain about everything, you know. And he said, but, I realized after a couple weeks that she was doing that, so I decided, It sounds like you said, I don’t know about that. He said, every time she complained, I would find something beautiful or great about the situation.

And he said, you know, they’d be walking across campus and she’d say, I don’t know how I’m gonna get this class done, I’m so overwhelmed. And he would look up at the mountains and say, look at this. Can you believe how beautiful this is? It’s hard to even imagine we’re on campus like this. Look at that. Look at the view.

I never believed when I was a kid, I’d even be here. This is so awesome. And she, he said it would snap her out of her complaining it into a beautiful place. Right? And I said, well, that sounds great. Why are you calling me? What, what, what’s the problem? He said, well, she’s not complaining anymore and I’m not getting a chance to find beauty as often.

So what he said? Yeah, he said when we’re together now, she doesn’t do that. She she’ll be walking with me. She’ll find beauty herself. And I’m like, wait a minute. That’s that’s my job. You know, and he said it’s, it, the, the relationship has changed because he, he kind of got to where he wanted to hang out with her because she would force him to find a beauty, you know, anytime she needs to enforce him to find some sort of beauty or goodness, right?

And he said, she’s not doing it anymore. Now she’s finding goodness. And I’m like, wait a minute. Hey, Hey, Hey, that’s my job. Right. And he said, it was, it’s the dynamics had changed, you know, but it was really interesting. that you talk about modeling and what a great situation, you know, to, to find things that trigger you into the, or to, to come up with a plan for addressing these things once and then making it a habit, right?

Which I really liked that modeling behavior. But if the other thing that you said that I want to touch on, which is truth, and I love the idea of what you’re talking about is, is beautiful truth. Okay. I think we’ve got to be careful. And my dad taught me this when I was a kid. When I was a kid, my mom and dad taught me this.

I can’t remember if it was mom or, I want to say dad, but I bet it was mom. Because I, I, everything I refer to dad, because he was my, her, guy, right? Yeah. But I think it was my mom. I think this was a mom thing. And I remember getting into an argument one time with one of my brothers, and we were feral, me and my brothers.

Okay. Like, like, we would get into brawls. I mean, there would be physical damage done to each other, right? And, and, I don’t remember the situation, but I remember one time, telling my mom, my, my little brother had some, uh, some anger management issues. And I think we all did. I’m, I, I shouldn’t say he did. We all did.

We were, we were all feral. But he used to do this thing, where my, where he would like to drink glasses of milk in glass. Milk tastes better in glass, by the way. If you don’t know that, pour it in a glass cup, pour it in a plastic cup. Tastes better in glass. If you like milk and it’s cold. Well, he would walk around the house drinking milk all the time and he would get mad at me and he would throw a full glass of milk at me and it was, I have had glasses of milk, the milk sprayed the glass shatter on my head, right?

Oh man. And I remember going to my mom with time and it, you know, it would cause a, do you want to, you want to cause a fight between brothers? Put some paint on one of them. Especially, he’s younger than me, too. Oh, yeah. Which meant, oh, you’re in. It’s over, right? I got size in. It’s over. And fury. Now I’m in pain.

I’m out. Well, I remember one time there was a conflict. It got over, overwhelmingly blown out of proportion. And I, we got in both real, real, real trouble. And I said, you know, and she said, you can’t say or do this. Or, I can’t remember the details. But I said, but it’s true. It’s true. What I’m saying to him is true.

And it was. And she pulled up a scripture, and I think it’s in Doctrine and Covenants somewhere maybe, I don’t know exactly where it’s at, but it said that which doth not edify is not of me, right, or not of the Lord. I can’t remember exactly, I might be misquoting it, but it was one of those moments that in a heightened state, it stuck, right?

And it made me realize that a lot of times I think too many of us jump to what, you know, a lot of people say, well, You know, my truth, and I hate that term, because it’s not your truth, it’s your perception. Truth is truth. Your perception might not be absolute truth, right? But it doesn’t even matter if it’s true.

If it doesn’t edify, then you probably shouldn’t be flapping your lips about it. I don’t care if it’s true or not, right? A lot of people want to jump back to, well, it’s true. I can say it because it’s true. You know what? It doesn’t matter if it’s true or not. It doesn’t matter what your perception is, even if it is true.

If it doesn’t edify, you probably shouldn’t say it, right? And it’s something that I’ve… It was drilled into me in that moment that I’ve always remembered. I haven’t always done great at it. I don’t think any of us probably have, but I know my kids have grown up in a situation where they realized some things just shouldn’t be said.

It doesn’t matter if you think they’re true or if they’re actually true or not. You know, if it does, if it’s not edifying and it’s not uplifting, don’t say it. We don’t have to say it right. And I think it goes back to your, you know, when, when, when our kids go into crisis. And you consistently, if you’re empathetic and you consistently remove stimulus all the time, they don’t build up those muscles, right?

And they, they might come back, and kids are manipulative, let’s just be honest with it, they’re gonna figure out what works. And they’re, I know a lot of people say, I saw this chart the other day and it was a chart of why kids on the autism spectrum misbehave, right? And all these colors, on one side it said because they’re being bad kids, right?

Or they’re, because they’re… Misbehaving and being bad kids and it was black and then the other circle with all these different colors because they don’t understand because they’re having trouble Communicating because they’re in pain because it had all these different colors with different like percentages, right?

Okay, and the black one the real percent.

Why is your son melting down? 0 percent was because they’re misbehaving and I was like, hold on all of it is not or because they you know The black was misbehaving or because they just want their way And the rest of it was all these reasons that were not really their fault, you know saying That we’re overstation or can’t communicate properly or is hurting or is in pain or doesn’t understand and i’m like, okay Okay, hold on.

Let’s sometimes our kids are misbehaving. They’re testing the waters They’re doing things. They shouldn’t be doing to see what they can do. That’s what kids do. It’s not because they’re bad It’s because they’re kids and I love what you said, right which is We have to help them. Life can’t be the crisis, right?

Yeah. Things that happen in life. I, I, you know, I, I talk to a lot of autism parents and say, Well, the world should change for my son. Well, you know, that’s a beautiful… That’s a very, uh, you know, utopian view, and that’s a beautiful view you have, and you know, I would love that too. But, my son’s got to learn to live in this world.

This world is not going to bend to him. I don’t care how much I want to try and advocate for him, he’s got to know there are lines in the sand he can’t cross, or the world will discipline him, and the world will throw his butt in jail if the world doesn’t love him. He won’t be able to fuck any way, shape, or form.

If I remove every crisis from his life that’s part of life, if I try to get the world to change their view of him and remove all crisis that are just normal parts of life, and guess what? Pain and suffering is a normal part of life. Yeah. Challenges are normal part of life. Facing hard things is a normal part of life, right?

Kids will manipulate us. They will say, I feel unsafe in this situation. If we remove that and put them in a safe space, that’s kind of, sometimes life is hard. They’ll use that to get their way sometimes, because they’re testing. And if, like you said, we can do more harm than good. Mm hmm. If we compete every, we really gotta be thoughtful.

And understand our kids are capable of being bad. I think

[01:11:06] Cameron Watson: that’s probably one of the most important pieces is you have to be thoughtful about how you apply this. And I’ll give an example of my, uh, so I have three kids that are on the autism spectrum, the, uh, one of them, we, so we screwed up with the oldest, right?

He, we kept removing life to remove the stimuli that was causing the trouble. And we just. Blatantly screwed up. We are repairing that. Things are getting better. The next one down I’ve already, she’s watched her older sibling go through life and have the hard things removed because he was suffering and she’s suffering in a very similar manner.

Same type of thing, same similar attitude. And I’ve had to explain to her, Hey, look, we’re not taking this stuff away from you because this is, we, uh, it, and actually I pulled out books and I made it a third party because it, it was hard for me to, to be so different when she could see how I treated one situation when she’s going through the same thing.

And I’m doing practically the opposite. I’m not adding to her plate, but I’m certainly not removing things off her plate. So, I would, third party to, I had to explain it. And just say, look, we did damage here. And I, I will not do that damage to you. And I might not apply this correctly. But I’ll tell you what, I don’t want you to get into the depths.

Of where you have to recover like he had to recover. So, that, that’s how I started with her. And then, um, it was actually, uh, two nights ago, she was at a church activity and she called me up and said, can I go with the older group? Cause that’s where her sister is. And, um, I, I said, well, tell me more. And she was having a hard time.

And so instead of continuing the conversation over the phone where I couldn’t see her, I happened to be at the church. So I went and I found her. And so I could see her countenances, so I could see where she was at. And, uh, I just asked her to tell me stuff. And I said, you know, that sounds like, you know, you’re, you know, you’re, you’re having all of these emotions.

You’re feeling all of these things. And remember, we’re doing things in spite of, and she was like, yeah, okay, I’ll stay. And she said, okay, yeah, I’ll stay. Which is, she was, she was going to go do the activity that everything in her didn’t want to do. And tears just started coming out of her eyes. Now, I know my daughter, and nothing in this thing called parenting is absolute, except for my love.

Everything else is malleable, and adjusting, and I’m going to make mistakes. In this case, I looked at her and I was like, you know what? Come with me and she’s like, well, I was like to come with me and I made eye contact with the adult leader and I pointed to her and then I pointed to me got the nod so they knew I was taking her and We left and for the next hour.

She had an Outpouring she just talked the entire times so for a straight hour She was just expressing life and did she avoid the thing? Yeah, maybe it was not. That was not the right time to have her go, uh, and get, you know, have the exposure and prevent the response. That was not the time for that type of therapy.

And instead, it was a time for her and I to build our relationship with each other. And I’ll tell you what, she talked my ear off about everything. And then by the time we got back home an hour later, she said, now, It’s important, dad, you take everything I said and just don’t treat it like it was true, except for this one part.

That was absolutely true. I was accurate, but the rest of it, I, I was, it’s, I’m overly dramatic. She talked herself clear back through an entire thing and got back to a state of typical where she could deal with life again. And because I was thoughtful about how I applied the, the principles of being a dad and a parent.

I was able to say, you know what, this one, this time I’m going to take her and we went to Costco most of the other times, though, it’s going to be, Hey, stay at the activity in spite of how you feel that discernment, that decision, that’s for each individual to decide in the moment with plans in place, if you want to be Kyle or a flow chart to help you make decisions, if you want to be me, but, uh, or you can be like my wife and just wing it.

I mean, she’s. Yeah. Oh, I don’t know how she lives, but she does that’s the, you know, that, that piece that you said, thoughtful, you know, you, you have, it’s the kids are trying to figure things out. And you know, the one thing I disagree with that statement is that they’re just, they’re going to figure things out.

Well, if that was true, when we all at some point be near perfect, because we’ll figure out that pain and suffering. It’s to be avoided and we keep causing it

[01:16:43] Kyle Jetsel: to ourselves. Well, I think, uh, you know what, you say that, right? But, uh, the, the, the true, I guess, not true, but what I mean by that is, is people do what works for them.

Okay. Now sometimes, and by, by figure it out, I mean, they’re going to figure out what works for them. And what works for some people is. The ability to, you know, post their pain and suffering online and everybody comes to their rescue and they get motivated and pumped up and, or they feel better about themselves or, right, there’s a lot of benefits to it.

There’s a lot of benefits to that. Okay. And they, then they, they get addicted to those benefits or that’s what they want. Right? So it works for them being in pain and suffering. So let me, let me, after Shelly passed away, can you, I’ve never had more people come.

[01:17:38] Cameron Watson: Can you tell me more about the term it works for them?

Because that’s where I’m in a hard time. Cause I’m like, it doesn’t work for them. They’re not improving. They’re not progressing. They’re stuck. That’s not working for anybody. So what does it mean when you say it works?

[01:17:54] Kyle Jetsel: Yeah. If you go back to the six basic human needs, right. Variety, security, uh, connection and love.

I can’t remember them all. Uh, uh, I think I can’t remember them all, but when I say what works, not everybody’s interested in, in self improvement. Right? Okay. We talked about this a couple of days ago, uh, I think a while back, where we said many people who say, Hey, I’ve been in a, in a real learning mode, you know, I’ve, I’ve really lowered the expectations.

Yeah, they just lowered their expectations of themselves, right? And I’m not, I’m not saying that’s everybody, but when I say what works for them as kids, let’s say for instance, let me give you an example. Let’s say a kid wants, uh, more freedom. From their parents. They want to go hang out with their friends more often.

Okay. Okay. I’ll give you a very clear example Um, and I used to work with a young guy. He came to me when he’s he’s a difficult kid, right? He’d been through a lot of trouble a lot of trauma and he said he didn’t like he didn’t really like his family growing up He thought his mom was manipulative. His dad was too controlling his brothers and sisters.

He just didn’t like them There were their presents

And he says to his mom after they opened their presents, Hey, can I go out and hang out with my brother, my buddy? And she says, No, just stay with us. It’s Christmas. So he says, You never let me do what I want to do. You’re always trying to control me. So, you know, she gets escalated. She says, You’re not. No, I’m not.

I don’t care. I’m not letting you go. And he didn’t. She wasn’t that calm. Right? But it got escalated. Eventually, he just dropped the F bomb at her. She lost her mind. Her dad got aggressive with him. to protect his wife. This kid’s a teenager, right? Maybe 16, and kicks him out of the house. Can’t curse in our home like that.

He kicks him out, and the kid walks out of the house and grins, and he walks over to his friend’s house, which is what he wanted. He kept trying things to get what he wanted, right? Okay. Now, so my point is this. We all do things. We all do things to find out what works for us. Let’s say you want… You want to go golfing with something you love, you, you know, and it, it matters a lot to you, you’ll manipulate situations and create a world where you get to go golfing.

And if that means sometimes talking to people weird or doing certain things or saving money or not spending it on. You know, Christmas gifts for your kids or not spending it on, you know, something for your wife so you can go golfing. We do what works and when it stops working, we try something new. Okay, now all of us want different things in our lives, right?

You have to understand all of us want different things. All of us want

[01:21:03] Cameron Watson: connection. All right. Yeah, I think that was my problem is I in my mind working is to get to the ideal. That I see, not, not the goal that they’re trying to do right then. So,

[01:21:18] Kyle Jetsel: thank you, Claire. And, and, kids don’t, kids don’t see the things like we do, right?

They’re, they’re short term oriented. Sure. So they’re gonna keep trying things, you know, and if, and if a kid doesn’t want to have a relationship with you, they’re gonna do things that work, that get them that, right? If a kid is mad at you, They’re going to do what works to hurt you or to upset you or to express their anger, right?

They’re going to do what works and what it doesn’t work anymore. They’ll try something new now My goal in my family has always been it’s going to be a whole lot easier for you and a lot more fun if we get along and we Treat each other kindly because if you don’t is I’m going to be unfun for you all around I’m like this.

I love that. My kids are hard headed because I know I am And I know it serves me well, right? I know I’m a stinking mule sometimes, right? I mean, I’ll never forget when my oldest was probably seven and my second son was maybe four or five. And my second son threw a fit. He didn’t get what he wanted. He started screaming and yelling and flopping around on the floor.

And his seven year old brother said, hey, stop that crap. And he’s like, what? He says, if you do that, You’re not, you’re never gonna get what you want. Dad, that’ll never give you what you want. And he’s gonna make our day really tough. He’s gonna make us work, and we’re gonna do all this crap. Just stop, and he’ll make us, he’ll help us have a fun day.

But if you do that crap, we’re doomed. And I’m like, holy crap. My oldest son realized that is the wrong way to get what you want. He had already come to some conclusions. The way to get what I want is to be good and kind and helpful. And, you know, it always didn’t, it didn’t always work, right. Cause kids are kids and they’re feral.


[01:23:14] Cameron Watson: So it sounds like what you’re saying is, um, number one, if people will continue to try different ways to get what they’re seeking and they’ll either, they’ll figure out a way to get what they’re seeking or they’ll give up and not seek that anymore. They’re, they’re, those are the two options. So they’ll find what works, that what they’re seeking.

And then number two, sorry, I love little thumbs up thing, but, uh, and then number two, uh, you started talking about Shelley after her death and you started having an outpouring and then I interrupted. I want to go back to that in here.

[01:23:58] Kyle Jetsel: Yeah. So I am, I am relationship seeking. I love human interaction. I like talking with people.

I like communicating. It energizes me. And after Shelley passed away, I, there was, I never saw so many people come to our home to talk, to just check on me. Yeah, and it was intoxicating, right, for me. Now, I’m aware, I’m aware of my wants and needs and desires. I’m not, right, not everybody always is, right? Sure.

I mean, especially, it’s, kids are trying to figure things out. They may not know that they’re seeking more, you know, attention from their parents, and if they threaten to run away, they get, they may not know that, right? I’m not saying they always are aware of everything. Right. I’m just saying they’re seeking and they’re looking for ways to get what they seek, right?

You maybe you said it a little bit better. Well as things started to slow down I felt it right and I was aware that I felt it and a lot of things crossed your mind, you know Oh, yeah. Sure. There’s the bitter part of you that says everybody just wants to run to your rescue You know the minute your wife passes away, but over a period of time, they don’t really care They just wanted to be seen and seen To them, nothing has changed.

You know, a month later, everybody goes back to their regular lives. My life is destroyed. My kids lives will never be the same. Right? Do they, did they really care or they just, you know, so you, you can see how, because I’m, I’m relationship seeking, I’m aware, I was aware of what was going on in my brain, right?

And I realized it, I’m, I’m, I had to realize that I am relationship seeking, I have to, it has to be me, right? I can’t expect people to show up for the rest, it’s, it wasn’t their wife, it wasn’t their mom, right? And I would do the same thing, not because. I’m uncaring that I don’t continue to go see him and to, and watch over them.

I had, you know, so I had to replace that with, and by the way, Shelley was my anchor. She was my, you know, I had a friend one time tell me, you know, when everything gets overwhelming, you know, I can’t, life seems too hard. I go hiking in the mountains and it resets me. And he said, what do you do, Kyle? I said, well, I would go to Shelley,

right? And now she’s not here anymore. I can’t go to Shelley. Right? Yeah. So how do you replace that? That calmness, that, right, that resetting. And I was, I’m aware, right? So I’m looking for, but, but it’s your, your subconscious likes to seek, right? Mm hmm. How do I, what do I do, right? I remember a lot of, a lot of individual people said, tell me what I could do for you.

And I said, hey, what you can do for me, especially men. I’d say, love the crap out of your wife, man. Make sure she, make sure she knows, right? If you want to know what you can do for me, do that. That will make me feel good about the situation. The other thing is, you know, i’m not not all the time But occasionally it’d be nice to get together and go out to dinner or something like we did with shelly, you know It it’s all disappeared.

It doesn’t happen anymore, but that’s okay I realize I realize people have lives and they have to do their thing But I have to i’m seeking that I have to pursue that right? I can’t Sit back and let people come to me and expect that to always happen. I know it’s it’s It’s up to me to make those connections, right?

Right, but It’s, it, it was hard. It was, it was hard because you feel, you feel abandoned on so many levels, right? You just, you, you feel abandoned by God, you feel abandoned by your friends who are supposed to be your friend, and they are, right? I mean, this is the, the, the bitter side of you, the, the attitude and the bitter side of you can rear its ugly head because I’m seeking relationships.

I’m seeking that communication and over a period of time it disappears, right? And it’s not there anymore. They have lives. And, and I know, I know, I’m aware of it, so it’s, it was, it wasn’t so hard for me to manage that, but subconsciously I went through that, right, and I had to be very aware of it, you know, and you talked about thought, right, we really, we really have to be thoughtful in this stuff, and I think, I, I almost, I, you know, you said compassion and empathy, and I’m gonna turn it back on me for me for just a moment, because I love your, okay, No one understands my situation like I understand my situation.

Yeah. No one could be as empathetic to me and I could feel, you know, you said earlier, uh, I never had this attitude before. I used to think that pain is inevitable, but suffering is a choice. Yeah. Um, I don’t believe that anymore. Yeah. I have one of the best attitudes ever. Absolutely. But, you know, and I think you said it best, Everybody’s gonna suffer and I didn’t even I didn’t even believe that I didn’t even believe that until I realized through this The passing of Shelly that man, I can’t even Control that right?

I’m gonna suffer sometimes. Yeah, and I don’t care how good my attitude is I would like to suggest my my attitude is a is a really good 10 And so I live suffering but the suffering is there. Yeah, and sometimes it’s overwhelming, right? So i’ve I have empathy for that. But what I don’t want to do is is Followed to my own pit of empathy.

I want to have compassion for myself. I want to treat myself kindly and give myself the opportunity to have that suffering because I know it’s necessary. Mm hmm, but also myself with compassion and say it’s part of it, but you grab your lifeline. Pull yourself out of the pit. Right. There’s somebody reaching down to help you.

Yeah. Let that person, you know, God help you. But the pit can be deep, right? I get it. And so, uh, I heard one time a story, you probably heard this Cameron, about the old man that had a mule that was really, really old.

[01:31:04] Cameron Watson: Yeah. Yeah. I loved that story. Tell it. Tell it. This, I love it.

[01:31:10] Kyle Jetsel: So the old man has a mule that’s really, really old and it’s just, he feels like he just needs to, this mule is really no use to anybody anymore and it’s just suffering.

And he knows he needs to. It, probably the most, you know, uh, compassionate and empathetic thing to do would be to, to kill the mule so it doesn’t suffer anymore, right? Well, he comes out one morning and the mule is gone. Can’t find the mule. And he searches around for it. Finally, he looks into an empty well that he has, that’s gone completely dry, and he looks in and the mule has fallen into this empty well.

And he thinks, you know what? This is my chance. The well needs to be filled. The mule really doesn’t, is not serving a purpose for me or himself. The end. You know, I’m just gonna bury the mule. This, this is perfect. I can kill two birds with one stone, so to speak. There’s your dark humor, right? So he just grabs his shovel and he’s filling the well, and he starts feeling it, and he doesn’t want to look.

He loves this mule. You know, this mule has served him. Been a great mule. So he doesn’t really want to look until he’s pretty sure the mule has been buried beneath the surface of the dirt, you know. So after half a day of just filling this well with dirt, he’s sure the mule now is buried. And he’s just going to look down and see how much more he has to go before the well is filled.

And he looks down in there and there’s the mule standing on top of the dirt that’s risen, you know, feet above where it was. And he’s like, what the heck? So he thinks, so he takes a bunch of dirt and he throws it in the, in the, Into the well and he watches as the mule shakes off the dirt and then stomps it down and he realizes at that point Mule is not ready to be buried.

The mule is not ready to die The mule is is using the dirt to lift himself to the surface of the and he does he he Every time he puts dirt in he shakes it off and stomps down It gets closer and closer to the surface until the mule hops out of dirt Yeah, and it the story it just hit me like a ton of bricks You know, as I, it’s, you know, we, we get in these pits of despair, right?

And you know, when you said, I’ve heard people say, you know, it just can’t get any worse. And then it does, you know, what else are you going to throw at me? Or this is the worst time in the world to have a flat tire, you know, come on. It’s just, and it, and it, and I’ve never been that way. And I feel blessed that I’ve never heard that story.

And once I heard it, I thought, dude, I’m just a freaking mule just stomping on the dirt, you know, I’m the kind of guy when I have a flat tire. I think to myself, this is a pretty good time to have a flat tire. I’m, I’m not late for a meeting, you know, things are going to happen. You know, there’s nothing pressing in my life.

It’s not like I’m rushing to get to somewhere or, you know, and things. And so I’ve kind of gotten into this habit saying, this is a, this is a good time for this because things are going to happen. Now’s a good time. I mean, it’s not the end of the world right now. And so I can pull over and change my flat tire.

And I remember one day, one time I went to the doctor, I had a, um, A problem and the doctor told me, you know, I need, you can’t be lifting any weight for Next six months, right? I had some issues and I go out to get in my car and I start driving I have a flat tire, you know, and so I think well, you know, I’m not in a hurry to get home So I pulled over and I I realize as I’m starting to change the tire that it’s, I said, I’m not supposed to be torquing this wrench to get this tire off.

This is exactly what the doctor just

[01:35:04] Cameron Watson: told me to do. Don’t do this and then you get to go do that.

[01:35:09] Kyle Jetsel: And I’m thinking, you know, me and my justified, I can take care of anything mind say, I’ll just use my, I will grit. I’ll just, you know, I, I come up with all this justification. I realized it’s really risky. So I call my son.

And he zooms over, right? And as he’s, as he starts changing the tire, I get down there. He’s like, get back, get back, get back. Right. And I say, I just feel, I feel bad that you’re changing my tire, you know? And he, and he stopped for a second. He stood up and he said, dad, you’ve taken care of us our whole lives.

Let us take care of you for just a second. Yeah. And it, and it kind of shook me a little bit. You know, and I think for me in that moment, I realized, you know, we don’t have to do everything by ourselves, right? We don’t, we’ve got help. We’ve got friends. We’ve got counsel from people we trust, you know. We’ve got a relationship hopefully with God that we can rely on, you know.

There are times where we’re gonna have to ask for help. I have so much trouble doing that, man. You know, I have so much trouble doing that. But I realize now that there are times where I need to reach out to people. I’ve called you. When I was in trouble and you didn’t know, but just talking with you helped me and I don’t always have to, uh, express our pain or suffering as much as we just need to connect, you know, you, you’re connecting conquer is so powerful because a lot of it is connecting with people and humanizing with people and realizing your love just from communication, you know, and it goes back to, you didn’t know I was struggling.

You didn’t know that I was suffering, but I know who you are and I know you’re compassionate. It’s. Right? And you’re willing to reach into the pit and, you know, throw a head down and help me out a little bit. Hopefully

[01:37:19] Cameron Watson: not throw a big pile of dirt on ya. So that you have

[01:37:25] Kyle Jetsel: to… Well, I tend to be the one that does that.

You know, when I tease you about, you know, 200 square feet of skin. But that’s just my way of managing things, I guess. And you seem to… It didn’t tell you… You know, we gotta be careful who we… How we… How we… Communicate with people, right? Sure. There are times where people have said stuff to me, and I’ve thought, Boy, there’s a really, they’re setting this joke up on a tee, And I can smack it out of the park.

Yeah. And I just don’t say, Heh, because I don’t really know if it’s the right, Now, there are other times where I have, They’ve set me up, and I’ve smacked it out of the park, and I’ve realized very quickly, Yeah, I shouldn’t have hit that one. And I have to go back and apologize. Hey, man, that was bad. That was not the time or place, you know, and I apologize.

So we’re gonna, we’re gonna, we’re gonna miss, we’re gonna whiff sometimes, right? We’re gonna make those mistakes. But again, it’s the, it’s the compassion to understand when you’ve made those mistakes, too. Which, I like what you said about your daughter. You told her, listen, I see, you saw this. You’re expecting the same.

We made mistakes. We’re, we’re, we know better now, which means it’s harder on you. Right? We believe it’s better for you long term and it’s because we love you. We discipline and we manage these things in a certain way because we love. Yep. And the more we know, the more we, we try to do things that, you know, we can’t say idiot from everything.

We can’t remove life. You know, you, you said I think in our very first, our very first, uh, one on one we had talking, you said people need to be good sports in life too, right? They need to be good sports in life. They need to fail. They need to lose, right? So they can be good sports at losing and failing and facing challenges and, right?

And part of that is facing some of that, is facing some of that crisis. Now, you know, the other part you said, which I love, is do it in the spirit of love. Because when you do things in the spirit of love, people… You can make tough decisions in a spirit of love and people feel

[01:39:45] Cameron Watson: that. Right. Yeah. And that requires, um, in order for others to recognize that you’re doing in the spirit of love, you have to have a threshold of a relationship.

Um, I’ll, uh, I’ll share the story. Uh, we were taking advantage of recently when we bought a used couch, we were buying a new couch that was a factory reject. And, uh, my, my, it’s, it’s an awesome couch, I love it, it’s great, but, um, and it was very inexpensive because it was a factory rejector, you know, it had been damaged in shipping.

Well, yeah, yeah, that’s not the case. It was someone, it was in someone’s home and some child, we know, I mean, unless in transit, there is a little kid with a red marker. And then someone, you know, got most of it off, but you can kind of see where the remnants were, right? It, it was, it’s been used, but what is ironic about it is, uh, they wanted us to come get it on the Sabbath.

And we, we said, Oh, you know, we, we will come and get it a different day. We’re not going to grab it on the Sabbath. And if you sell it to someone else, because you know, you need to get rid of it. We totally get it. No problem. Right. We weren’t going to go buy it on the Sabbath. Um, anyway, so I go to pick it up, I think on a Tuesday or something.

And the, the guy’s like, so tell me, you know, Hey, I’m really curious about, uh, your religious beliefs and, you know, share with me. And, you know, and I, I shared just real brief about the Sabbath day and how it’s just a day that the Lord has set apart and we’re trying to honor. And keeps the Sabbath day holy and that’s you know, that’s what I’m trying attempting to do I’m not great at it all the time.

And anyway, well turns out he was Uh, he wanted to engage in belief restructure. Uh, he wanted to change my belief to be in line with what his understanding of the scriptures were. And, and you know, the way he started, he, he was so, he started off where it sounded like he was a seeker of truth. And, uh, it turned out that he was not seeking truth.

He was, he was seeking an opportunity to persuade and change someone else’s mind or really degrade other people’s beliefs. And, uh, it was very, my son was there and we’re, he’s engaging and he’s really going off and I kept telling him, well, I don’t know, you keep telling me what I believe, but I haven’t expressed that.

He goes, well, you said. That you’re this persuasion. I was like, well, there’s so much I don’t understand. And I don’t think you understand me because I don’t understand me. I’m still learning. It was, it was really interesting because he kept trying to tell me where I was wrong and telling me to go seek additional information.

And you know what, there is no way I’m going to go and look at any of the stuff he has because we did not cross the threshold of the relationship where I know that my best interest at heart, he kept telling me that he, he had my best interest at heart. And I kept telling him, I don’t believe you. I didn’t say that, but I just said, well, I don’t know about that.

And then I would state something that was true. And for me, it was my testimony and my Lord and savior that. To me was like, he, he didn’t realize that he can’t get, he, he never crossed that threshold of the relationship. So in the end, which is hilarious, we get this couch home and he just had this really thing about being more, uh, in line with Christ and, you know, really potentially could have been a really great opportunity for him, but he didn’t cross the threshold of a relationship before he started engaging in trying to persuade.

And then number two, the, he was dishonest in how he started and he was dishonest in the transaction with the, what, how he represented the couch. I find it interesting that in these forums, we, I, I, I don’t think you’ll have the opportunity to help others until you cross the threshold. Of a relationship where they can recognize the spirit of love that you have.

Some people are gifted, they can recognize it right away, but I think most people who are in a pit when they hear someone from above saying, grab the rope, they’re like, Oh, what, what are they trying to sell me? Right? How much is the road? Yeah, great. Great point. So I, I think full circle, though, coming back to the original thing, empathy versus compassion.

Hey, if you’re empathetic, great. If you want a higher law, if you want something that’s better or best, compassion. Because I don’t think you can have too much compassion as long as your actions are based on truth. That is, um, not set by situation. In other words, they’re principle based. And then you use what you said earlier, thought and discernment to decide how to apply it in any given situation.

And then perhaps you, when you, when you have something that causes pain and suffering in your life, maybe it’s appropriate to take a minute and decide how you’re going to handle it next time. And see if that makes a better outcome for you. Cause you know, that there was a video I saw on the internet and it’s so terrible.

I won’t even tell you where to find it, but this, it’s a kid sliding down the slide and somehow the, the harmonics of his butt cheeks on the slide are causing his body to twist. And he goes from one side smacking his head to the other side, all the way down. Oh, that poor kid. Well, you know, she gets back up and you know, he’s going to go back down the slide someday.

The question is, is he going to try and do something a little different to maybe have a better outcome? Yeah.

[01:46:41] Kyle Jetsel: Yeah. Well, the other option is to say slides are bad. I will never go down a slide again, which is, you know what you talked about. Life is… Life is crisis. Yeah, right. There’s a risk, you know, the joy of going down a slide carries with it risk and he’s experienced pretty close to the worst risk you can have right off the bat, right?

I mean, yeah, is he gonna you know? I I had a I got scolded recently by a good friend of mine and I say scolded in in a funny way Right, because I’m coming up on two years since Shelly’s passed away and you know He’s man is not meant to be alone. Kyle I said, Hey, I appreciate it. I know you’re doing this in the spirit of love.

Thank you for that.

And he said, I can see what’s happening. I said, okay. I mean, what’s happened. He says, you, you know, you have this, you created a top 1 percent happy marriage. You have this vision of beauty. You think nobody can, he says, you, he gave me a lot of great reasons, right? You think you can’t replace Shelly. This’ll be something new.

He goes down this big, giant path. You know, and he was trying to sway me in his direction and I get it right in this. He was doing it in the spirit of love. I understand he I’m

[01:48:18] Cameron Watson: not mad. You would, because you had a relationship that you could recognize.

[01:48:24] Kyle Jetsel: Yeah. And he made this analogy for me. He said, you know what, Kyle?

He said, uh, you know, when you’re driving down the road here in Boise, if we. Head up north, we can go to a place called McCall, which is a beautiful mountain lake. And it’s, it’s one lane going one way and one lane coming the other, and it’s twisty and turdy through the mountains. And there’s one stripe between.

And sometimes you’re going 55 miles an hour. Sometimes you slow down to go around these corners. And he said, Kyle, you know, love is like this road to the, to McCall. I said, yeah, how’s that? He said, well, you know, there’s really, it’s risky. I mean, there’s only a, a stripe between you and another car going 55 miles an hour.

He said, but to not ever go to McCall again just doesn’t, you’re going to go to McCall again. I said, okay. He said, it’s almost like you just, you’re not, you’re planning on just not loving again. I said, oh no, no, I don’t, don’t, don’t say that. But his analogy tickled me because he’s like, you know, if somebody Messes up three feet one way and the other person messes up three feet the other way.

You got a Massive head on collision two cars five miles an hour. There’s going to be death and carnage And as I said, well, it’s interesting to me that you you know associate Loving again with death and carnage, you know? But I, I appreciate where you go with this. I get it. You’re like, yeah,

[01:50:06] Cameron Watson: that I relate

[01:50:10] Kyle Jetsel: that’s gee. Right. But I, I think it’s, I, I think it the point that he was making, I understand, right? I mean, I, I think you said it best at the very beginning. Right? When, when, and I’m gonna keep going back to this, is which, which is life can’t, you cannot always remove Christ. Right. Right. You can remove something, but people need to learn to face.

People need to learn to drive to McCall. They need to learn that if they cross over that line, that it’s going to be painful, and they need to experience that pain. And they need to make adjustments according to how the world works, right? And how, how we want to create our lives. You know, my, I remember my son one time came home from school, he didn’t want to go to school the next day.

I said, why is that? He said, I don’t have any friends. I said, why is that? He said, everybody, everybody just doesn’t like me. I said, everybody? Yeah, I’m just a bunch of idiots and I said, well, what are you doing? He said what I said it I’ve never been in a situation where everybody hated me. I mean you should be able to get along with somebody What are you doing to repel people?

He’s like, what are you talking about? I said You got to be a pretty you got to be pretty unlikable by the entire world to tell me you got no friends now And if that’s the case you can make adjustments what I said go make some adjustments man. The world works In accordance with how you work the world, right?

Go to school, find something to compliment somebody about. If a kid’s good at math, tell him you’re good at math and sit next to him so he can help you. If, uh, if, if a guy’s good at football, say, hey, you’re good at football, show me how you do it, right? I mean, there’s ways to make friends. You must not be very likable right now for some reason.

Is it your attitude or is it how you’re talking to people? Or is it what you’re doing? Is it your approach? All those things are things you can change. Now, I’m not saying change your morals or your standards, right? Legal, moral, ethical, and nobody gets hurt too bad is good. Keep those. But there’s a whole lot of things you can do that are, they’re variants that you can control that can, and within weeks he came back and he had all kinds of friends, right?

He made adjustments. And I think we can make adjustments too, right? Now, it’s hard. It’s gonna be hard to face. There’s gonna be crisis. Right? Yep. I was on a call yesterday with a bunch of autism dads. Okay. And one of the dads said, I don’t like going out with my friends or people I went to college anymore because all they do is talk about their kids and all the sports they’re playing and how they’re excelling at all these things.

And my son is on the spectrum and he’s severe and he doesn’t have any of these things going for him. And it’s just… I don’t even want to go anymore. They’re just beating me down. It’s like they’re bragging or something. How do you handle that? And I said, cheer for them. He said, what? I said, they’re not there for you.

They’re there to flap their lips and you’re there, you’re there to flap your lips too, but obviously you can’t because you can’t compete. So go there and cheer for them. Let them do that. And let them tell you how wonderful life is and cheer for them, cheer along. I said, you’ll be shocked at how great of friends you’ll have if you just listen.

You’re going there to talk, not the time for you to talk. You can talk to other people about that situation. Go there, enjoy your friends, your college friends, your other friends, when they’re talking about their kids. Cheer them on. Say, tell me more. What else? What else? What else? And you’ll be shocked at how they’ll come back to you one on one.

Because you listened and didn’t try to over talk them and compete with them to talk. Just listen. And they’ll come back to you one on one, and when they come back one on one, then you’ll have a chance to say, my situation’s a little different. And I’m guessing they might say, really? Tell me about it. And if they don’t, you can find other people that’ll ask, right?

There’s a time and a place for it. Them and for you, right? Cheer them on! Go enjoy them for who they are. I said your, your approach is you want to go there and tell them all about you and you feel like you can’t. Your approach is to go and listen to them and cheer them on! These are your friends. You should be able to just listen.

Cheer them on. Enjoy that moment. Enjoy it for them. It doesn’t take anything away from you. You know, go for this reason. And he was like, holy crap, I can do that. I’m like, yeah, do that. There’s all people that you can talk about, right? I mean, uh, most of this is just your approach, right? It’s, now, now you, uh, and I’ll share one last story with you, I think I’ve already shared this, but after Shelly passed away, I couldn’t look at old couples, because it made me mad, because I wanted to grow old with Shelly.

Yeah. And I didn’t like that, I liked old people in love. Mm hmm. I didn’t like how that was making me feel. So I came home and thought, how can I reframe this, right? And I thought, you know what, when I see it, I’m gonna tell, and I started telling old couples. How beautiful it was to see them and i’m telling you it made them cry it made me I made Convection nice and it booed me up to see that that exists in this world and I I had one couple He was he was using a walker and they were just so sweet to each other Right and and I I complimented him.

I said, you know, i’m watching you guys and it’s just so beautiful I can see you guys love each other. It’s making me really happy and we got to talking and I found out the guy had Just been, uh, his body had been attacked, you know, and he, he was, he was using this walker because out of no choice of his own, it was just random.

It’s life right Into a crisis that happens in life. And he says, you know, be grateful on that. You know, you, you’re not my age and this didn’t happen to you. And I asked him how old he was, and he was three years younger than me. Oh, wow. And it, and it just, I didn’t say anything, but I thought, holy crap, how blessed am I?

Yeah. To have my health. He didn’t know that. He thought I was young, quite a bit younger than him. You know? Right. And how blessed, how blessed am I to have my health in it? I left that conversation just uplifted

by that couple, not just because of their love for each other, but because man, I am healthy. I’m getting around okay. I’ve got my, I’ve got my issues, but I can sure get up in the morning and get going after, you know, loosened up a little bit. But, you know, I think a lot of what we’re talking about is just, is framing things so that you can experience the joy and get joy out of it, right?

Empathy, not all the time. That ability, right? You can get sucked into a pit with people. And I think what you’re talking about, it’s much more healthy for us to show compassion to them. Especially if we have experienced something similar, we can have empathy with compassion. You know, and then, and then help them if they’re ready to take the steps ever, right?

[01:57:49] Cameron Watson: Agreed. And that, I think that goes back to what you were saying earlier, you know, you’re going to need to get out of the pit. You’re going to need a connection with God. You’re going to need to connect with others and you’re going to need to connect with yourself. Uh, and if you don’t do one of those things, you’re probably not going to be as successful.

Uh, getting out of the pit and perhaps avoiding other pitfalls. I’ll tell ya, it, Kyle, this has been our conversations that we have every week. I just, I look forward to them, and I am so grateful for you as a friend, and the connection that we have, so thank you.

[01:58:28] Kyle Jetsel: Me too, me too, Cameron. Hey, you should ask people that watch this, ask them what they would like us to talk about if, I mean, cause we have all kinds of options.

Okay. Yeah,

[01:58:37] Cameron Watson: I’ll, uh, I’ll start putting that as, um, giving us ideas. That’s great. Thanks, Kyle. Yeah. Thanks,

[01:58:46] Kyle Jetsel: Cam.

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