Warning: This episode contains a candid discussion about suicide, including personal stories and strategies for dealing with suicidal thoughts and ideations. Viewer discretion is advised. If you or someone you know is struggling with thoughts of suicide, we encourage seeking help from a professional or reaching out to a support hotline in your area
[00:00:00] Cameron Watson: Hi, my friends, quick note, before we get into this week’s podcast, we’re going to be talking about suicide. And we want to be sensitive to those who have dealt with this in the past. And this might be the episode for you to click on. To skip. For the others of you, as you listen to Kyle, use suicide as an example of how a child may escalate to get what they want.
If, if, please continue to listen to my response. Uh, I feel it’s important that everybody treats wishes for death or wishing for non existence all the way through suicide ideation to attempts. to treat them as if they’re real. Uh, this is important, kind of a passion for mine because I have a nephew who is no longer with us and I’ve had a couple of attempts, uh, in my own family and I deal with people I love every day who are battling for their lives internally.
So as you If you choose to continue to listen to this, please give Kyle some grace because he was using it as an example of how a child may escalate and then listen to my rebuttal and listen to how we talk about it in the end. And if you are dealing with Uh, suicide ideation or thoughts of depression or wanting to end your own life, you know, there is help out there And the message at the very end of this podcast, I think is important for everybody and i’m gonna play that first He he said this he says stick with it And I promise that someday Things will have gotten so good for so long You’ll look back and you’ll have a hard time believing that you went through that, which you went through morning.
Good morning. How are you doing?
[00:02:00] Kyle Jetsel: Pretty good. So what’s the topic today? We, we bounced a couple of topics around. I want to know what you want to talk about today.
[00:02:06] Cameron Watson: Well, I kind of like the idea of telling stories about techniques on communication and dealing with kids and stuff. And I actually titled this one, uh, tips, tricks and failures.
Okay. I see that now.
[00:02:23] Kyle Jetsel: All right. Well, are we going to, are we going to talk about, cause I wanted to hear more from you about, you’ve talked about connection with, uh, others, with deity and with self, And I totally get connection with others and I get connection with deity, but I’m curious about how you, how you would identify and what you would call connection with self and what that
[00:02:47] Cameron Watson: means.
Well, let me tell you, um, I just recorded a podcast with my daughter, Rachel, who’s 14 years old and she had a connection with herself. And it was, it was not because anything we did as parents, it’s something that just internally happened. And the way she describes it is she came to a realization that she could no longer wait for life to get better, that she needed to start to work.
At making life better. That is a connection with yourself. That’s a realization of what you can do and something you’re willing to do. And those two there, there’s, um, there’s an infinite number of things that we could work on, but some things are more important than others. And the connection with self is that self is that reflection upon one’s own current state that would allow you to go.
You know what? If I work on this thing and improve just a little bit, it’ll have a much larger effect than working on this thing where I might improve this much and wouldn’t have as much of an effect. Okay.
[00:04:00] Kyle Jetsel: So what you’re talking about is, is identifying areas maybe of lack in our own lives or, or areas where we struggle or we find frustration with ourselves or.
Those kind of things. Is that
[00:04:14] Cameron Watson: that’s part of it. The other side of that coin is to recognize those areas that you’re good at and putting it into the world and bringing more into the world because you’re good at something. And that’s as equally that’s a that’s as important as the working on areas of weakness.
[00:04:35] Kyle Jetsel: And that’s almost connection with others to write. That would be giving back based on your. Here’s the question, though. I got a question for you.
[00:04:44] Cameron Watson: Okay. Before you go, I do want to say, no, it’s not more of connection with others. When you put it into the world, I, as a programmer, I don’t deal with people as a developer.
I deal with a computer screen and then I put the, I put it into the world and people, people’s lives get better when I created this tool tracking software, this company’s life got better, their employees lives got better. They were able to have an increase in profitability because they had fewer tools walk off the job site.
I had no connection at all with those people, but I was good internally. I was good at programming and development and I wrote the software for them. Had nothing to do with connection with others. That was purely a connection with self. Okay.
[00:05:36] Kyle Jetsel: And I’ll disagree with you on that.
[00:05:38] Cameron Watson: Okay. So tell me how, how much did I meet with anybody?
On that project.
[00:05:45] Kyle Jetsel: No, I’m not. Here’s what I’m suggesting. Not that project. Okay. Let’s say I write, uh, let’s say I write putting, putting myself out in on Facebook or let’s say I write an article posted on blogs.
[00:06:00] Cameron Watson: Yeah, you’re, you’re talking about, so potentially it could, but I see what you’re saying for you because all of the stuff that you would do externally involves connection with others.
And that makes sense. But I would just disagree that when you go, when you’re self reflective. And you’re you realize that you have a talent in an area and you go to put it into the world to improve the world that that’s gonna create a connection with others. I would actually propose that for most people it will not.
I think you’re the exception.
[00:06:34] Kyle Jetsel: I think that’s a good point. And the reason I say that is because, um, I agree with you on that point. And let me tell you why. As I’ve put more things out into the world, I’ve realized that by taking the time to, uh, figure things out before I put them into the world, right? It requires me to sit down and think through and write out and contemplate how I want to project into the world.
And that has improved my ability. My personal, uh, maybe that’s connection with myself because it’s given me the opportunity to more, to learn things on a higher, right? I think I heard somebody one time say, when you learn more, when you teach, then when, then when you. Then when you live within, when you’re in a class or listen, right, right.
Yeah. And so I can see where you’re going with that, but I, but I will say this for those people that like connection with the world. Um, it’s powerful. One of the, somebody asked me one time how I wrote my first book and I said, I said, well, I didn’t do it in a traditional way. I didn’t sit down. and create 10 chapters and then create 10 sections of each chapter and then write the book, right?
What I did was I, I kind of documented my life and what I was trying to do and put it out in the marketplace. I put it out there and as people gave me feedback, it motivated me to do more. And more and more. So for me, it was a feedback loop. My first book was just a compilation of the feedback loop that I got from everybody else out there.
Right? So my first book, I’ve heard people say, writing a book is the hardest thing you’ll ever do in your life. It wasn’t for me. The hardest thing for me was putting all the stuff I’d written together in a format that made it work, right? It wasn’t writing the book. That was hard for me, because I’d already, I had written short stories, articles, all these things that I had to compile.
And so I think you’re, you’re probably right. It probably, it works. It can work both ways, but I think you’re right. When you put a, For me, a lot of what I do is looking for feedback because that motivates me to continue.
[00:08:48] Cameron Watson: Yeah. So essentially, uh, so Mary, she has a website called Love Mary Carolyn, and it’s where she’s going to be helping people learn how to journal because it’s such a reflective aspect.
You would. You incense your style of journaling was very similar to mine in the fact that when I journal, I think as I’m, I’m presenting to somebody else in my mind now, the difference is I never do anything with that. I never put my journal entries out there for the world. I don’t want any feedback. It’s just for me to process.
But for you, you’re, you’re using it. Thank you. The crowd to help you refine what you’re thinking and what you’re talking about. And when someone has an objection, I imagine instead of being like frustrated that they don’t get you, you go, Hmm. Oh, I get it. I bet you, you get excited because you’re like, I see, I wasn’t as clear as I could have been for this principle.
And then you can talk about it more and refine it. And it probably clarifies it for you just as much as it will clarify it for someone else.
[00:09:57] Kyle Jetsel: Yeah. You’re that’s not my first reaction. My first reaction is how much clearer can I be? You idiot. But then really helping anybody. That’s my, just so we’re clear.
I want people to understand right. At first I think, what are these nuts? But you know, you and I both know when we’ve talked about this. We have a title for this. It’s called the curse of knowledge, right? We know what we’re trying to say. So we understand when we say things, what it is we’re trying to say, but not all the time does the market get what we’re trying to say, because we understand the background.
So you are right. Initially though, it’s sometimes aggravating, but very quickly, You know, for me, a frustration is always a trigger for me to say, okay, what did I not do right? Or how can I make it better? You’re right. Sure. Or how can I be more clear on this?
[00:10:49] Cameron Watson: So, you know, Robert Jordan, uh, author of the wheel of time series until Brandon Sanderson took it over.
He was interviewed one time and asked if he listens to audio books and he says, well, I only listen to my own. And that really puzzled the interviewer because most authors say, yes, I listen to audio books, but I don’t ever listen to my own. Um, but he said by having someone else read it out loud, he could, the way that they interpreted it to emphasize certain things and to not emphasize others, it would help him as an author realize, Oh, I need to put a little bit more into this because the, the, they’re not getting it.
And his wife, who happened to be his editor, Harriet, um, for years would be his first reader who would then say. Yeah, you know what? You’re not getting it. This isn’t this isn’t coming clear. This is there’s no foreshadowing here. You think there’s foreshadowing, but there is none. You need to put a brighter light on that to cast a darker contrast or darker shadow to foreshadow of something coming up.
And it’s fascinating to listen to how you’re introspective look after that initial frustration turns to fascination, how you’re able to utilize someone else’s, um, non curse of knowledge, their ignorance, if you will, to help you refine it even better. And to clarify that’s, that’s fantastic.
[00:12:18] Kyle Jetsel: Well, I think too, and this goes back to what you initially said about your daughter, right?
And this is why I’m curious about this whole thing. And I want you to get into it a little bit more.
Because my natural reaction is is not kind and friendly my natural reactions That’s it’s my natural reaction to me too.
[00:12:42] Cameron Watson: Oh interesting, right? You’re down on yourself as much as you are on others.
[00:12:47] Kyle Jetsel: I have to be I have to be very careful, right? I can beat myself I can be in I can beat on myself pretty dang hard.
Okay, so This might be news to you
[00:13:01] Cameron Watson: because
[00:13:04] Kyle Jetsel: I can, I can, uh, my, my natural inclination is to say when things go wrong is to say, ah, crap, what, you know, I probably deserve this or why me or, you know, what else is going to happen? This is my natural first reaction. And I’ve really worked hard to say, okay, wait a minute.
I know what’s going on. Right. I catch myself pretty early. Sure. Sure. But. But hearing that your daughter came to this, had this clarity, this moment of clarity makes me think that she might be like me a little bit and that she has a tendency to beat herself up a little bit and to not have internal confidence, initial internal confidence, right?
You
[00:13:53] Cameron Watson: know, that may be, no, I think, uh, so the reason I paused on that is cause it’s a new concept to me because on the outside, both you and her come across very confident, you both have fabulous senses of humor, you both are fun loving, you can be snarky, uh, you guys have a lot of the similar traits that I appreciate and, uh, respond to.
And it never occurred to me that you. And thus it never occurred to me that she might also lack some initial confidence in herself. Because she is, um, you know, I’ll give you an example. She got, she wanted to get into an English class that wasn’t, um, for high school, that, uh, an AP class, which to me, I’m like, why, why take on more work?
But you know, my kids are also the offspring of my wife. And so of course they’re going to be successful in academia. Um, anyway, she. She didn’t get in. And so most students, I think her age would go home to her parents and whine and cry and feel bad. And the parents would console her and tell her there’s nothing she could do.
No, that’s not what she did. She wrote, she went and met with the English teacher whose recommendation she needed to get into the AP class. Then she wrote an email. And then she followed up with the, the teacher. And now she’s in an AP class in high school that she wasn’t going to be able to get into, to me, that takes extraordinarily, uh, that’s has that requires so much internal drive and internal.
Like, what’s the word?
[00:15:41] Kyle Jetsel: Let me share a new concept with you. Okay. Because I get it, okay? This is not about, and I’m going to tell you from my experience, okay? Alright. I was never afraid to try something, right? I would see something and say, I’m going to try that. Then I would go into it with extreme confidence.
And I would fail miserably.
But
[00:16:06] Kyle Jetsel: if it were, if it involved other people holding me back, there was this giant chip on my shoulder that said, you will not, it didn’t mean I was confident. What it did mean is I would say. I would internally say, you know what? Um, I, I suck, man, this sucks and I’m not good enough for this, but I’ll be dang.
And that was the confidence part of it. It wasn’t, it was external confidence internally. I’m like, I’m, I’m not enough. I’m simple minded. I’m behind the curve on a lot of things, but the, the chip on my shoulder forced me to face it and, and chase it. Right. It doesn’t mean I didn’t go through this cycle of.
Man, I suck. I don’t deserve it, but I’m not letting that guy or that girl tell me, right? I really believed I didn’t and I still struggle with this. I think I’ve told you about this I don’t sometimes I think I’m I’m I don’t deserve everything I have and it’s a it’s a and I’m working on that
[00:17:13] Cameron Watson: Yeah,
[00:17:14] Kyle Jetsel: but I look around me and I got and I’m like, holy crap I don’t feel like I’ve worked to deserve this all this I’m just an Idiot, you know, a kind of a simple minded goofball.
How, I’ve just been gifted so much stuff and there there’s that little part of me, right? But if some, but if you came to me and said, Kyle, you can’t do this, I would say, yeah, watch. Now, the reality is I’d probably say, he’s probably right, but I’ll never give up until I figured this out because Cameron said I couldn’t do it.
Right. I mean, so although you, you see this drive and this, I don’t know, and I don’t know if she’s that way. Maybe she does have this extreme confidence, but I do this self taught. that’s defeating. It’s my natural, it’s the natural fallback. Initial, initially for me is the defeating or is the defeating self talk, but then it, I always come back to, yeah, really.
They’re not going to stop me. Right. I don’t, and maybe it’s, and maybe sometimes I make somebody up to, Or make something up to get a chip on my shoulder. Yeah. I’ll never say that to you. And I don’t present that, you know, I’m not Michael Jordan, you know, who, when interviewed says, yeah, that guy told me I couldn’t shoot a jumper.
So I was going to kill him with my jumper. I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t say that out loud. Sure. Right. But I would, I would, I might think, cause saying it out loud makes you sound like a jerk. Right. And you don’t want to, you don’t really want to be a jerk. Sure. But it doesn’t mean, I mean, yeah. It’s a way to defeat that self, that internal bad self talk, I guess, maybe.
Yeah. It’s to create, it’s to create something.
[00:19:03] Cameron Watson: Well, that’s, it’s interesting to hear you describe that. And then I’m trying to think about how I am when I’m presented with stuff. Um, I am full of hope in instantly. Which is funny because, you know, I recognize my own flaws. I can identify them, but they don’t bother me too much because I have this baseline belief that regardless of my own weakness, uh, God is all powerful.
And if I link my self to him, I’m going to be okay. And the way I link myself to him is through his children. So that this is connection with others. And I do very, very little, uh, self talk that’s negative. Uh, if anything, I have to say, I have to purposefully look at. And force myself to go. Okay, Mr.
Optimism. That’s great. But what is it that you can do that you should do that will have a impact moving forward? And that’s harder for me because I have to consciously do it. Otherwise, I become one with the couch. I am happy even when the house is on fire. It’s like, well, at least it’s toasty warm. It’s rare for me to go, man, life is horrible.
Now I have gotten to that point. Don’t get me wrong. I mean, we went through it and I got down and I got, I, I got to where I could not figure out my role in helping, uh, my family out of the situation we were in. And then I did feel, oh my goodness, I felt, And I still have regret. I don’t think I have guilt anymore.
I’ve dealt with that, but I have so much regret and I’ve talked to all, all of my kids about it. The older kids, the older four about how I failed them as a dad to push them through and force them to do hard things. I still regret that, but I’ve corrected it for my younger kids and that, that self reflection, it wasn’t there.
There was a tendency to beat myself up a little bit and just say, man, you know what? You were wrong and you were, you were wrong when it mattered. This was not a sterile, you know, internal where it doesn’t really matter for anyone else. This was, it mattered to your kids and you failed and you should have recognized these three things.
Your wife was saying this thing. Your brothers were saying these things. Your parents were saying these things and you dismissed all of those things. Because you thought you were all that. Shame on you, right? That, I did have all of those thoughts. So, I have those, but that’s, that is unusual.
[00:22:04] Kyle Jetsel: Yeah, and you’re talking about, I don’t, I don’t think for me it’s focusing on past experiences.
Okay. I think it’s, it’s a default. It’s a, again, I want to go back to default. And I think this is why when you, when I said if somebody disagrees with a post. Initially, I say, you idiot, I couldn’t be more clear, but I realized that’s not true ever. Yeah. Very quickly. And it’s the same with my, my internal self talk, right?
I don’t ever, I don’t have a lot of regrets because I don’t think they help me. Right. I’m, they’re not productive for me to have regrets. And so prevent you from redoing
[00:22:46] Cameron Watson: it. I mean, that’s one of the best things for me is I don’t ever want to feel that again. So I make sure that I don’t do that again. Yeah.
[00:22:53] Kyle Jetsel: Yeah. Yeah. So I don’t, I’m, I’m, I think we’re saying the same thing, but I don’t focus on my past as much.
[00:23:02] Cameron Watson: Okay.
[00:23:03] Kyle Jetsel: Because I think I was doing the best I could at that moment. You know, and, and if I, if I could go back with the knowledge I have now, I’d have different outcomes for sure. Okay. Because I would, I would certainly do things completely differently.
I’d make different decisions.
[00:23:19] Cameron Watson: That’s interesting. I’m sorry. I’m going to pick that apart a little bit. Just having different knowledge causes you to change behavior.
[00:23:29] Kyle Jetsel: Yeah. If I, if I knew what I knew now, there were things that if I could go back and I, and I, you know, people say, Hey, if I could just go back to when I was 22, what would I do?
I’m like, I don’t want to go back to 22 unless I can go back with what I have now in here. Yeah. Then I could, I could change a lot of things for the better. I’m sure I would still face challenges. But imagine you go back with all the knowledge you have now. Uh, that’s cool. Going back to 22 doesn’t thrill me.
I don’t want to go through that crap again. You know, and
[00:24:04] Cameron Watson: so yeah, I would still, I would, even with the knowledge I have today, I would still, I would have to work really hard to not do the exact same thing I did back then. Seriously. Yeah, knowledge doesn’t change my behavior. Really? I have. Yeah. That’s why I’m fascinated by what you saying Just having knowledge changes your behavior.
I’m like, whoa Because I I know what is right and wrong and I still choose wrong most of the time when in certain areas Health is a great example. I know I’m not moving very much right now. And I use the term moving. Other people call it exercise. I know that I’m much better off. I know that no change in behavior.
So I I’m fascinated by someone who gets more knowledge and it changes their behavior. That’s great. Because the awesome.
[00:25:02] Kyle Jetsel: And that might go back to. You talking about regrets, right?
[00:25:06] Cameron Watson: Yeah.
[00:25:08] Kyle Jetsel: So if I could go, if, if I could go back to 22 and still have what I have in my mind, there’s a lot of things that I would do the same, but there’s also things that I would, I know I would make adjustments in because I’m smart enough to understand where that’s going to lead.
And where other things are not going to lead. And I think that’s the point, right? I mean, I get where I want to be a lot faster. So I think that can improve a lot more people’s lives a lot faster,
[00:25:32] Cameron Watson: including my own, my, my daughter. Uh, so my kids, uh, I have three kids who have been diagnosed on the autism spectrum or who’ve been diagnosed with autism spectrum disorder, ASD.
And my oldest one, I was constantly removing the stimuli from, right. And it caused more harm than good today with my younger to every time they run into something that makes their life hard. I want and I start moving towards removing that I moved to the same pattern and I have to work hard. To change.
And it’s not just the knowledge. It’s I mess up and then I have to talk to my wife and say, you know, I did the stupid thing again. I I let her stay home from school because it was easier. And what? Why? Why do I still have to battle this when I have a knowledge of what is wrong? And so even today, even with that regret, I’m still making the wrong decisions Some of the times the nice thing is in the same way that GPS did not prevent me from getting lost as often, but it did keep me from being lost as long.
In the same way, having that regret, it, I still make the same mistakes, but I correct them a lot sooner. So they’re impactful.
[00:27:01] Kyle Jetsel: Right. And since we’re talking about tips, tricks, and failures, I think this is where, this is where I’ve gotten to a point with a lot of things, not everything, but there are a lot of things that create triggers for me.
And I think people use the word triggers in such a negative way that people are like triggers bad for me. Triggers are great.
[00:27:26] Cameron Watson: Okay.
[00:27:28] Kyle Jetsel: Because When I start to think, you know, when I see that negative comment about my, or somebody doesn’t understand my posts on online and I say, what an idiot. Well, immediately that triggers me and goes, yeah, yeah.
Stop. Right. So I’m not suggesting I don’t. My natural inclination is an X. What I am suggesting is I’m very quick now at flipping it to the new script. And I think that the cost formula, since we’re talking about tricks, tips and tech, when I, when I feel angry or frustrated or discouraged or whatever, I pull out a cost worksheet and I say, what is it?
And now I create a new series of steps that I can follow easily. You talked to
[00:28:15] Cameron Watson: those who haven’t heard of the cost formula. Go over that challenge. Go ahead.
[00:28:21] Kyle Jetsel: Yeah. So I have a piece of paper that says, uh, cost across the top and the C is challenge. The, uh, O is long term objective. The S is strategy. I like to name it.
And the T is the tactics. So when I face a challenge in my life or a frustration or discouragement, it triggers me to say, I don’t really want this to be a frustration or discouragement in the future. So I’m going to create a series of steps that I can follow every time that allow me to get the longterm objective that I’m after.
Right. And I usually like to name the strategy, something stupid, because then I remember it. Sure. Right. And instead of getting frustrated or angry or discouraged, I let that trigger me and say, okay, what was my series of steps I’m going to follow? And I follow those steps every time. You know, you mentioned letting your daughter stay home, right?
I would have a very specific cost strategy written up. And every time she said, I don’t really want to go to school. I would say, what are my, what are my tactics? What are my steps I’m going to follow every time? Because that would be a trigger for me to say, okay, I see what’s going on. She, my longterm objective is she’s not staying home.
She’s going to school and I want to make it as fun and as good and as happy for her and for me as I can. I would call it the, you’re going to school, dammit strategy. Cause that’s silly, right? Whatever, name it, whatever you want. And I would have a series of steps I follow every time. That’s going to give her consistency.
She’s going to know if I express this every time that dad and mom are going to do this, And I’m going to end up going and they’re going to be smiling. And no matter how much I fuss or cry or complain or whatever it is, she, I don’t know how she does it. I’m just imagining my daughter. Yeah. Um, she reasons with me.
Yeah. And, and dad is, dad is going to smile at me and he’s not going to turn into a, It’s he’s not going to allow me to negotiate. He’s, uh, going to be firm. He’s going to grab the ugliest clothes he can find and start putting them on my body and laughing while he does it, whatever those steps are for you.
And then he’s going to lift me up and Put his arm under me and drag me to the car crying with wearing something I don’t want to wear without putting my makeup on, whatever it is. I don’t know your daughter, but I know I can foresee kind of some of the things my daughter will do and I can create a series of steps.
She’s going to teach me as we go, by the way, because she’s going to try new things. Negotiation doesn’t work. How about reasoning? How about crying? How about begging? How about saying my stomach hurts? How about saying it’s that time of month? How about all these different things? My daughter will try. I’m going to be two steps ahead of her.
And if I’m not, I’m going to go back to my cost work. She didn’t say, here’s what the thing she did. Add another one. And what ends up happening is I’m so consistent with her. She might say, you know what, this ain’t going to work. He’s going to, I know what he’s going to do every time, no matter what. So my best bet is to.
Is to get ready and go to school and be happy because he’s going to help me be happy. I can go to school and be miserable and he’s going to make sure I go and be miserable and it’s not going to be, it’s right now. And again, my goal is to do it in a, in a loving kind way, right? In the spirit of love. And that’s the first step all the time in your tactics.
Put myself in a state of love, stay there and then follow my steps. And my daughter’s going to see that she’s going to catch it. And guess what? The next time I’m not going to give one day, she’s I’m not going to give up because too hard. I’m going to have something I do every time. And she’s going to be the trigger for me to go into my consistent process.
Okay. So now I don’t have to think about it anymore. Now, she might make some adjustments and I will too, right? She might try something new. She might say, I’ll kill myself. Ah, this is new, right? I’ll have to, I’ll have to adjust my tactics for that. What if she says, I’ll kill you? What if she picks up a knife?
By the way, I’m saying these because my son has done these things. I’ll run away. So I’m not suggesting this from a, I don’t mean for it to sound a flip it. Yeah. Yeah. Because I realize it’s not, but I also realize kids will ramp up. Where does mom or dad break that? I don’t have to go to school. Right. And they’re going to, they’re going to, they’re going to move up and they’ll try new things because they really don’t want to go to school.
And I get it. I didn’t like school either. I get it. I understand. So I got to be a couple of steps ahead and think what, what else might they try? I got to be ready for it. And if I’m not, then the next time I’m going to go back to my worksheet and I’m going to make sure I fill in the blanks, right? That what that does though, is it gives me when they, when they say, I don’t want to go to school, it triggers me into my series of steps.
And I’m going to follow them to be consistent. And my that they’re going to get that consistent from me. They’re going to feel my love. I’m going to do it in a spirit of love. I’m not doing it angrily. Uh, I’m not The minute you get frustrated, you turn into a five year old because you start arguing with them and now they’re on the same level because you’re in a, when you’re reasoning with your daughter, you’re the same age as she is.
That’s a, that’s a negotiation. I don’t negotiate with five year olds. I don’t negotiate with teenagers. Now, I’m, I don’t have to be mean about it. I just say, Hey, listen, this is non negotiable. We go to school. It’s what we do, right? For me, it’s, we go to church. It’s what we do. Now you have a choice. You can go happily and I’ll make sure you’re happy or you can be absolutely miserable.
And guess what? I might help with that too. I’ll enjoy it. Now I’m not right. You see, you can see where my mind automatically goes is to, uh, is to, I try to make it fun, right? There’s a couple of ways we can do this. Right? We go to church. It’s what we do. I’ll kill myself. You know what? I can’t stop you from doing that.
But you, people can look at you crazy if you kill yourself at church. I’m not sure how you’re going to, I’m not sure how that’s going to work. Is that, I guess if you’re at church and you kill yourself. You probably punch your ticket straight to heaven because you’re at church where you’re supposed to be.
Maybe that, I don’t know how that works. Right. And I know you’re, I’m, I’m, I’m goofing here, but, but really I’m going to, I’m going to be seriously setting up a process for this. What I don’t want to do is have my child frustrating me every morning or saying, I don’t want to fight with her. I’m not going to fight with her.
I’m not going to negotiate. I’m going to follow these steps and I’m going to do it in the spirit of love. And so again, I haven’t thought through all these things, but I would, uh, And I would watch her and she would teach me how to, how to create the tactics I need to, and I would teach her
[00:35:24] Cameron Watson: right. Then I’m going to be very consistent.
And I’m going to throw this in there because, um, you obviously haven’t had a child commit suicide and you haven’t had a relative commit suicide. I have, I have had kids attempt suicide. So when someone says that they’re going to kill themselves, it’s not a ramp up. That is something that has to be dealt with and you should have a costs formula for that as well.
Um, but it, and it shifts it. Uh, and so it is, um,
[00:35:55] Kyle Jetsel: depending on when they say it, Well, let’s put it
[00:35:59] Cameron Watson: this way in our household, it is never a tactic for them to get what they want because what it does is it triggers a response that removes everything from them that makes their life easier. Bearable. So if they’re already at that point, we, you know, that then it’s what it is, uh, which is a cry for help because they are in so much pain, so much anguish.
They are so depressed. The idea of continuing to exist is horrible and they would rather go into non existence. Or go to the other side, which everybody promises that it’s going to be a paradise and they get to go be with God again. So when any of our kids brings up suicide ideation because it is a real thing and because they are dealing with depression, we, we go into, okay, let’s preserve a life mode.
That doesn’t mean they don’t, they, they get to stay home from school. No, it means that they end up going into, you know, Potentially a lockdown situation where they are protected from harming themselves until we can adjust things, um, and deal with those things. So, uh, your, I think you risk the way that you’re talking is for those who are actually dealing with real suicide.
And I use that term so loosely because I think you should treat every hint of suicide as real, because my nephew. Didn’t talk much about it at all. And he’s dead. So his, what, what warning signs did he give off? Well, I don’t know because I wasn’t there all the time, but I sure hope there was something cause that’s just.
Horrible to think about that any one of our kids could just end up hanging themselves and being dead as the outcome. So when you’re flippant and you’re talking about someone using it as a way of escalating and getting what they want. No. It should never work that way. It should be treated as completely real and sincere, and you need to start problem solving immediately and identifying the current risk of finding out where they’re at.
Okay, so you want to, you’re going to kill yourself? Tell me more about that. Do you have a plan? Do you have a time? Do you have a way to do it? Is it that you just don’t want to exist anymore? Or are you going to take active steps? Do you just wish that you could wake up right now? Are not wake up in the morning all of those questions need to be dealt with before you move on to get them to school But it is a quick assessment and then you can deal with the real the real case going on to school.
So Everything else you say I I get but you started talking about suicide and frankly kyle. You have no idea And i’m I am so internally Like hoping that you never have any idea that you, it is, it’s a blessing to your life that you get to treat it in that way of, Oh, you’re going to go, you’re going to kill yourself at church.
That’s interesting. It is not something to be treated lightly.
[00:39:24] Kyle Jetsel: I understand what you’re saying. I understand what you’re saying. And I, and if it came across that way, I’d.
For, for the family that I’m in of, uh, we’ll call them strong willed, right? They’re, they’re testing the fences in most cases.
[00:39:44] Cameron Watson: Okay. You know, I hope that’s always true.
[00:39:47] Kyle Jetsel: Yeah. I don’t have the experience you have in that area. And again, if, if that, well, I’m just going to refer to you whenever that, I don’t have any more to say about that necessarily.
Yeah. But my kids tried to use it as. a way to get to not right. They just tried to, it was their natural process of moving up the ladder to see where will dad break, where will mom break to where I can manipulate the situation. So obviously you’re right. If you have, if that. It’s something you have to deal with in a different way than certainly I’m not the guy to go to on that.
[00:40:24] Cameron Watson: Yeah, and I would recommend that if a child uses that, then you, you go through the whole process and you determine how safe they are. Because every time, every time it takes just a short 2 3 minutes and if they say it, they’re thinking it. And if they say it and they’re thinking it, you have no idea where they are at.
As far as suicide ideation, unless you ask, and even then you don’t know for sure. But, uh, I recommend all parents, if you’re listening to this and your child uses, I hate you. Okay. Yeah. You know what? And then if escalates and I, I’m going to kill myself. You know what? Stop being a parent. Become a clinician and investigate and find out.
Oh, you’re gonna kill yourself? Tell me more. How? Do you have a plan? Are you just saying you don’t want to live?
[00:41:24] Kyle Jetsel: Yeah, I think what you’ve just described Cameron is
Is digging into your kids.
[00:41:33] Cameron Watson: Mm hmm,
[00:41:33] Kyle Jetsel: right and and kids don’t like to be dug into all the time Most kids don’t like to be dug into at all. My kids did not like me to dig into them, right? And so they’re at that certain points My kids it’s so bad in my home that if you don’t treat me kindly I’m digging in, right?
And I’m saying hey something obviously bothering you because normally you treat me kindly But so we’re gonna sit down we’re gonna figure some stuff out. Well, they don’t want to do that with me Right. So they, and they realize that. And so it’s, and usually it is something bothering them, right? This isn’t, um, I guess what we’re talking about is knowing your kids very deeply, right?
Taking the time to understand who your kids are and knowing them very deeply. And once you know them very deeply, it’s easier to work through these situations, right? And what you’re talking about is completely different than something I’ve had to deal with. Uh, I had, I did have a son who had ideation, um, And you shared that with me and we managed that in a different way.
Sure. Right now we don’t have it. It wasn’t in our family. We didn’t have anybody close to us have that happen, but, but I saw him withdraw and start to have problems and I pulled him aside and I said, we need to talk it. Something’s going on, buddy. And I love you. And I want to make sure you’re okay. What’s going on?
And I dug in and he shared with me some. Stuff. And we were able to figure that out.
[00:43:11] Cameron Watson: Right. That’s awesome. Again,
[00:43:12] Kyle Jetsel: not using it to get what he wanted.
[00:43:15] Cameron Watson: Okay. There’s a
[00:43:15] Kyle Jetsel: difference obviously. Right.
[00:43:18] Cameron Watson: There’s a difference, but I’m going to disagree. No, there is never a difference. If a child says they’re going to kill themselves, you stop and you find out what that means and you don’t ever Ever, not once did you, should you ever assume that they might be joking or that they’re doing it just to get their, what they want and they’re not serious.
I know that there’s a risk that a child could kill themselves to spite their parent, to just give it to them. That’s still not a good outcome. And I know that there’s 110 different ways I can come up with today of reasons that a child might kill themselves. That is a fraction of what they might be going through in the real world.
And so if a child threatens to kill themselves for whatever reason that you think in your head, stop, put it aside and assess. And if you don’t know how to assess, then get yourself educated. There are questions that you can follow each time, just like your cost analysis. You can follow them every time and that will tell you the risk of that child.
And the Colombian, uh, depression, uh, survey is the standard model that’s used here in Idaho. You can just look it up and you can follow it on the depression side on the suicide.
[00:44:48] Kyle Jetsel: When you hear that, I want to hear your steps. You have to start asking questions. Let’s hear them because I’m curious how this works.
[00:44:53] Cameron Watson: So someone mentions the, any type of death that is appealing to them, whether it’s they are going to commit suicide or they just wishes that they didn’t have to live. Um, then I ask, tell me more. And that’s, that is my very first. I don’t tell them they shouldn’t feel that way. I avoid any judgment. And this is the hardest part for parents.
Because the, if you are inviting your child to share, you better dang keep your mouth shut about what’s going on in your own head and consider what is going on in theirs. You need to find out what’s going on in their head and hope that they’re being honest with you. So if they mention any type of death or suicide ideation, then it becomes, okay, tell me more.
And the first question is, do you have a plan? And that’s my first question, because it. skirts along the side. And if they have a plan, then I go, do you have a time that you plan to do it? If they don’t have a plan, then I go backwards and I say things like, well, tell me what that means. Uh, is it just, are, is this intrusive thoughts?
Because that’s a real thing too. It’s not that they want to commit suicide. They might hear voices telling them, you know, Kill yourself, do this, this will teach everybody a lesson. They’ll miss you when you’re gone. Those intrusive thoughts are torturous and sometimes it gets exhausting to fight them. So I start to ask those types of questions.
Is it intrusive thoughts? Is this just the desire to not have to deal with what’s going on right now? In your life. Tell me more. The, have you, how often does this come up? Does, is this constant? Are you having to resist these things? How close are you to being able to, uh, throw in the towel? You know, if they’re resisting, if they have a plan, then it becomes, do you have a way to do it?
What is the plan? What’s the timeline? Let’s, uh, you know, that I want to do things that are going to help keep you safe. What can I do? And then I, I like asking this question, will you please not kill yourself? And it’s amazing the responses that you get from time to time. Sometimes it’s, I don’t know. I don’t know if I can, if they can’t commit to that, guess what?
You get to take further action and it is something that you need to act on. Sometimes it’s like, Oh yeah, dad, I’m not going to kill myself. Okay, good. I want you around other times.
[00:47:44] Kyle Jetsel: I love this camera. Keep going, keep going. I don’t want to
[00:47:46] Cameron Watson: interrupt you if you’re. So other times they’ll just be quiet and you can just watch them battle in their own mind as these intrusive thoughts, this, the suicide ideation, the dealing with life is fighting against the, the other side.
And, you know, I had a child. Who was going to end his life through a traffic accident. And he left to do it. He had a plan. We didn’t catch it. He left. We knew things were not going well. We checked, we couldn’t find him in the house. So then I went and I got in the car and I started looking for him. I found him on a, the busiest street by our home.
And I just stayed back and I watched him and I watched him looking at traffic timing things. And I tried to figure out, do I. Hustle up there and grab him and shove him in the car. What do I do to save his life? And I prayed and I pondered and I tried to figure this out because if I had, uh, I know of a death of where the father was chasing the son that had the gun and he stuck it in his mouth and he pulled the trigger in front of his dad who was chasing him.
And I often wondered if his dad wasn’t chasing him, if he would have done it. And so as I watched my son at the edge of the sidewalk, watching and pacing traffic to end his life, I tried to figure out what would keep him alive. And I, I watched, and then I noticed that he noticed me cause I was far away.
And then he kind of stepped back and he just started walking slowly along the sidewalk. And then I would just pace him from several hundred yards away, maybe not a several hundred, maybe just a hundred yards away, and I would just pull into a side street. And stay where he could see me. And after a while, I sent him a text and I said, Hey, I’m here.
When you want to go home, I can give you a ride home. Cause he had walked quite a ways to end his life. Later on, I asked him, I was like, so you were going to end your life. And he’s like, yeah, I was like, what stopped you? And he said, I didn’t want to kill myself in front of you. You know, that was a blessing.
So when, when we talk about suicide and the battle that is internal, sometimes it’s just the simple request of a parent to please just don’t, don’t kill yourself right now. You know, give it another couple days. We’ve used those terms. Let’s see what happens in a couple days. Can you get through today? Are you going to be safe tonight?
And you know what, frankly, when they’re not safe tonight, there are hospitals, their behavioral hospitals that you can do an emergency check into. And if they’re, they don’t have a bed available, yes, you go to the local hospital and they have rooms dedicated to keeping people alive until things get sorted out.
And we have used that several times external of checking him in, checking our kids in, uh, for periods of stays into the behavioral hospital. We’ve used the local emergency room gone in. Said my son is not safe. They take us back. They put us in a room with, um, doors that are, uh, like what you’d see in a shed that roll up, these doors are rolled down and they’re locked into place and the, all the equipment is behind that door.
So it’s still an emergency room. But there’s nothing that the child can get to that’s obvious to clinicians and to hospitals that they can end their life with. And that’s sometimes what you have to do until time passes. Chemicals change influences applied.
[00:51:57] Kyle Jetsel: Perfect. I appreciate it, Karen. That’s that’s two things crossed my mind while you were talking is one is you just described to me very clearly a plan. Yes. And tactics. Yes. Beautifully. You know what to do, right? And I wrote down, I could, I could read them back to you, your steps that you follow every time because of the, uh, dire necessity of that experience.
Yeah. Right. And what, and I think the other thing that crossed my mind was this, and this is going to sound, uh, I’ll just tell you what crossed my mind is this. Is there is a connection with self that’s harmful. Yeah. Amen. So when you said to me, connection with self, I don’t like sometimes my connection with myself and you described to me a connection, you know, somebody that’s feeling tortured by their own thoughts, by their own.
And so, you know, connection to, I get connection to others. You know, he didn’t want you to see this connection to right. People love him. He, he feels that that’s connection with others. Connection with data. I understand that connection with self can sometimes be the most harmful type of connection because you’re doing things in your own mind.
And I do this, right? I remember quickly. That’s my first step,
[00:53:35] Cameron Watson: right?
[00:53:35] Kyle Jetsel: Sometimes harmful connection. When you say connection with self, I’m like, I don’t like connection with self. Cause I’m not very kind to myself. Sometimes I’m, I will beat myself up. I will. And I, and, and, and, and I realized that’s why whenever somebody says, I don’t like what you did, I attack immediately because I attacked myself immediately too.
And so I have this, when you say connection with self, I’m still trying to figure out how do I, this is a different perspective for you. I would imagine. How do I create connection with myself? That’s positive. That’s encouraging. That’s helpful and not beat the crap out of myself and say, I’d rather be with Shelly and not run down that path.
[00:54:21] Cameron Watson: So, you know, in the same way,
[00:54:24] Kyle Jetsel: There’s a mess going on in here for sure initially
[00:54:28] Cameron Watson: so my wife had a friend that I despised I rarely despise people. Okay, I’m generally I love people in general But this lady was such a horrible influence on my wife. I asked her I said will you please? Stop doing things with this friend.
She is hurtful to you She harms our marriage. She tells you things that puts things into your mind that are simply not true. Will you please stop associating with her? And she didn’t, she didn’t stop right away. It took time, but that connection with others was not healthy. Sure. Sure. And then you have connection.
If we define deity. Um, super power and instead of God, the loving God that I believe in, and you could say connection with deity could be construed as demons or demonic. That’s also not healthy, but internally to yourself, there is a connection that you can make with the best of yourself. And I go ahead.
[00:55:45] Kyle Jetsel: I want to, I want to.
Explore this further. We’re going to run out of time. So I want, if next week, could we talk about healthy connection with self? Sure. Because the words connection with self to me all alone
[00:56:02] Cameron Watson: are not healthy. Well, let me, Kyle, you’re missing the first part of the whole saying to overcome adversity, to overcome adversity is you need that, that, that preliminary sentence clarifies what type of connection we’re talking about.
So the healthy connection is what’s required in all of those ways.
[00:56:27] Kyle Jetsel: Okay. So let’s, let’s next week. I’m, I want to talk about this. Okay. Cause I’ve developed some that, you know, obviously I’ve mentioned triggers that I have. Okay. Sure. That take me from an unhealthy connection with self to a more, I call it productive, right?
Sure. Cause I realized what, I realized who I am. Like I realized what I’m capable of if I don’t manage that part of self connection. And I have a lot of tools and techniques and tricks and tips that we didn’t really even get to that I use. Again, when you, my initial is not always healthy is what I’m saying.
And you describing some kids relationships with their own initial thought process is not healthy either. Right? And so really, I think we need to get into the deep, the deep dive of
[00:57:25] Cameron Watson: one of the things I hope we talk about. Is the, uh, naming of the demon, the internal self that’s not healthy. Um, one of the things we learned from the, uh, is by naming it, then we can refer to it as almost an external thing from our internal self.
And one of my favorite things was joking around with my son, Hyatt, uh, who, uh, is affected by, uh, Obsessive compulsive disorder. Uh, the moral kind, it’s like torturous. I can’t imagine in some ways, but, uh, we talked about naming it and the different options for the names kind of fun to do, but also very powerful to separate that internal The, you know, the, the world has depicted it in the past as the demon on one shoulder, the angel on the other, both are truly there.
And you, if you can name the demon for what it is, and then when you have that, you can externalize it and say, you know what, that’s that demon, that thing I’m trying to get rid of. It helps you listen to the angel that’s inside of
[00:58:38] Kyle Jetsel: I really want to learn more about this from you and talk more about this because I’ve got a, I’ve got a, a pretty powerful demon,
you know, and I’m, I’m, uh, in a constant battle with it. Now you see, I am who I am and you see who I am, but it doesn’t mean I, I don’t, this is fascinating to me because You describing suicide and the thought process that, you know, the, the, your, the, the kids go through and the torture sometimes you wouldn’t think I would have that because of who you see.
Right. Yeah. And it sounds like it’s really something.
Yeah. I want to talk more about this because I want to learn more about this process. And what you’ve learned in those areas, right? Because I, it’s, it’s, uh, there’s a weight. I’m sure you’re, you’re, you know, those of your kids that face these battles, there’s a heavy weight. That weight is heavy.
And it’s, you know, you mentioned torture, so I don’t know that I would, maybe I’m afraid to say that word out loud for myself. I just call it a heavy weight. And I want to hear more about, maybe we can talk about this and maybe we call it, uh, naming the demon. Maybe we talk about that next week. I want to hear more about what you’ve learned.
Along those lines because I think even me a person who I’m optimistic. I really am, you know, yeah, I’m boy. I’m happy. But man, I got a demon. I’ve got demons that in my own time. I battled, you know, especially now, especially after Shelly’s passing. I think she was my, she was kind of my rock. She was where I went when I needed help battling those demons and she helped me.
I’ve heard people say, sometimes the world gets to be too much. I go up in the mountains and I walk, right. Or, or I go do this or I go do this. And somebody said, what do you do, Kyle? And I said, well, I would, I would go to Shelly and I don’t have it anymore. And so I’m trying to figure some stuff out along those lines.
Right. So can we talk about that next week? Let’s get back into it next week. Some more Cameron, if it’s okay with you.
[01:01:14] Cameron Watson: Yeah, let’s do, you know, I was looking up, uh, as I listened to you, let’s finish with this. Um, a good friend of mine, uh, he lives in, uh, one of the Carolinas. I’d probably get it wrong, but, um, I asked him for some advice cause he dealt with some pretty heavy things when he was about 21 years old, 2021.
And he’s now he’s happily married, has kids. He serves his community. He is. Uh, as typical as you can imagine, and I basically I reached out to him. I said, Hey, can you help me here? I need a little bit of hope and I need to know what to tell my kids that are going through not not similar but adjacent things as you and he, I’m going to try and quote him and I’m going to get this wrong, but if I, it was He, he said this, he says, stick with it.
And I promise that someday things will have gotten so good for so long. You’ll look back and you’ll have a hard time believing that you went through that which you went through. And that is my hope. Not just for my kids, but for you and for those who might be listening to this podcast and is that hang in there.
It will get better and it will get better for so much better for so long. You will look back and wonder. If it was really as bad as you remember, and I think that’s a good place for us to end.
[01:03:00] Kyle Jetsel: Sounds good, Cameron. Thanks a lot. I’m really looking forward to next week. I want to hear some. Yeah. I appreciate it, Cameron.
Thanks. Thank you.