Navigating Change in Work, Life, and Faith
[00:00:00] Speaker: All right. Well, good morning, Mike. Hey, how’s it going? It’s going fantastic. So it’s the new year and I was thinking about some things, um, on new new year resolutions. Uh, my family were setting goals and we’re doing all that. And what I noticed is one of the things I have no problem setting goals. Like I, I can say that’s my goal and I work backwards.
And a lot of times I, um, It looks like a totally awesome plan, but then something starts to go wrong and it doesn’t just stop me for that one goal. It seems to stop everything else too.
[00:00:51] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[00:00:52] Speaker: And working with you in the past, I know that when things go wrong, You know, developers, we get stuck in our own minds and sometimes we just start looping and sometimes it takes a nice swift kick to get us out of that.
And I was just wanting to talk to you about some of the things you’ve noticed from others, things that you do to help keep progression happening, even when. Things stop moving forward in one area or another.
[00:01:25] Speaker 2: Uh, that’s a good question. Um, you know, I’m just trying to think of, of some examples that this may have occurred. Um, honestly, I, you know, to me, it’s obviously when you’re from a development standpoint and being a product manager, you know, looking when, when there’s ever an issue, it’s ideally, you’ve already created a plan, you know, uh, before you Like a document, a requirements document and the whole purpose and everything.
And so for me, I always just go back and review that. Um, and then just iterate, right? I mean, one of the things that I have no problem doing is, is, um, just spontaneously changing direction, um, and just being flexible as long as you’re progressing forward and you’re going to meet your goal, you know, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with just.
pausing and doing a quick recalibration and then just keep moving forward progress. And even if, even if it’s, I think even if you’re not sure what the outcome is or how exactly you’re going to reach that goal. I think moving forward, continuing to move forward is the best thing. Um, and then eventually, eventually things just kind of reveal itself, you know, um,
[00:03:01] Speaker: path.
So does that make sense? Yeah, it, it actually, it’s interesting because you mentioned two different, things there. One was a reflection on what you decided before. So the plan of action and all that. Um, and then you said you don’t have a problem with changing direction or shifting. So does that come when you’re reflecting and you’re like, Oh, okay, so this was the plan before.
I can’t do it that way. So I need to do it a different way. Or is it, this is what causes, what are the priorities as far as the, uh, The shift. What, what do you consider? Okay. I have to re, I have to. changed the way I was doing it to accomplish the ultimate goal? Or are you saying that the goal itself can shift over and change?
[00:03:57] Speaker 2: Uh, both. Okay. You know, the, the goal can change. Um, why not? Cause if you get to a point and things, there’s a roadblock, um, you know, when you’re making a plan, it’s not, it’s not like, You’re a hundred percent certain that these are all the outside influences and risks and everything. There’s no one, no one can predict all those things, right?
Wherever a hundred percent. And so you’re always going to run into something. And so why not change, you know, Um, and I think sometimes, I don’t know, sometimes people, it freaks them out because then they’re like, oh, well, it’s going to cost extra money and our delay and all that stuff deadline. Um, you know, one thing I’ve learned is that everyone’s, everyone’s flexible.
Everyone can be flexible on timelines. And so. It’s important to negotiate that and then just make sure I keep, I’m talking from a standpoint of being a product manager. Right. And, and you know, you’ve got your stakeholders, like the CEO, and I’m just thinking all the stakeholders, everyone is flexible.
Everyone’s flexible and can be, they don’t want to be, but they can be. And as long as it’s not crazy delay, right, you still have to kind of maintain some, um, Some, uh, you know, I guess reaching those, those high level goals and timeframes. But if you need to recalibrate and delay just a little bit, I think it’s, I mean, for me, it’s okay.
I’m, I’m fairly just, I’m super easygoing and I’m like, okay, sure. Let’s just redo it. As long as it gets done, you know, who cares?
[00:05:57] Speaker: You know, I am looking back on different things when we, when I’ve been the cause of the delay. I hate it and I despise it. I hate being the one to hold things up. On the other hand, um, as a stakeholder, I tend to be fairly understanding when there are delays because when, in fact, in the plan subconsciously, when someone says, Oh, it’s going to be a six weeks, I go, okay, so I’ll plan on nine.
[00:06:31] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[00:06:31] Speaker: Uh, do you, have you ever worked with anyone who is consistent? In hitting deadlines like I work with sherry a lot. She constantly hits every deadline and it’s It’s not frustrating. It’s just maybe intimidating is a better word. She just always she says yeah I should have that done by wednesday and then you know, tuesday night I get a hey, it’s done and it’s like, okay That’s good for you.
She’s awesome. But you haven’t worked with someone who’s constantly Consistently able to hit,
[00:07:07] Speaker 2: um, as developers.
No, I mean, I think most of like most from a development standpoint, most developers are pretty good at. Meeting their deadlines. So, I mean, yeah, a lot of people, um, I know, but I’ve also worked with developers that say, Oh, it’ll be this long. And then, and then without a doubt, you just kind of have to say.
Okay. Add two weeks. Yeah. Yeah. And that’s just the Nate. I think the nature of the different, uh, uh, like teams, um, you know, the team that, that was okay with always missing deadlines and adding X two, two weeks. It was a, um, it was a pretty laid back, small team. Uh, the deadlines that we had were our, our own deadlines.
And so if we missed it, it wasn’t a problem. Um, you know, eventually we needed to kind of get better at that, but I think if, if he was in, or these developers were in different, different scenarios, they could, they could mix or make the deadlines.
[00:08:33] Speaker: That’s cool. I, I, uh, when you talk about teams, I get really excited.
I’ve been part of some amazing teams. One of the teams I was part of a guy named Matt Gregg. Well, there it was with Matt Gregg and Devin and the four of us. We got so much done. And so we, we would set a six, uh, we would set a six week sprint. Um, back then we didn’t have the language that we have now, but we literally did a six week, um, plan and we would front load the first two weeks.
And the four of us knew that the first two weeks were going to be horrible. We were going to be working way more hours. We were going to be just. spending all of our time trying to get most of the work done in the first two weeks. And we never missed a deadline, not once. And one time I think, uh, Devin got sick or something and he, it was, it was the type of illness where he thought he could, You know, he’d get better and he figured, okay, I’ll, I’ll be able to jump in and I’ll catch up.
Right. Oh, all because we worked ahead so much, he kept thinking he was going to be able to deliver. And, uh, I think we had a week left and we, Uh, it’s probably Matt because he was, he, we used to call him the, uh, cable Nazi cause he wanted everybody to pull cable before they did software. He wanted them to be really familiar with the physical layer, but, um, anyway, he, uh, Uh, he said, yeah, he’s not going to be able to finish.
Let let’s the three of us take it on and do it. And we still hit the deadline. Um, that, that team was extraordinarily performant and our cycle. I worked with them for about two. About two years and every six weeks we would get together, do a planning meeting. We, we knew what we needed to get done by the sixth week.
And then the first two weeks we would just Pound it and hit it. And then the last four, we would have, we would meet and we’d discuss all the things, but we didn’t know was going to be a problem when we started. And then we would fit that into the schedule for the remaining four. And that seemed to work really well.
I haven’t, I’ve worked with one other team that was performant like that. It was very rare. Almost everybody else seems to want to pace themselves. Yeah. Or they like to back end load it where they get behind and then they scramble and they use the, the deadline as a motivation to get stuff done. Uh,
[00:11:39] Speaker 2: I’d be like me just procrastinating.
Like that’s something I’ve always needed to work on. Uh, when I, when I have a deadline, I seem to work just better and I’m, and I’m late or I’m behind or like it’s close. I just, I always try and get it done. Like, well, yeah, it just, it. It just helps me work better.
[00:12:05] Speaker: That’s probably why you put in those milestones and, um, you don’t say, okay, we’re going to have this massive project done by date and you don’t have any other, uh, milestones or smaller deadlines in the midst
[00:12:17] Mike: of it.
[00:12:18] Speaker: Cause I think that’s the, The typical worker is, uh, they have so many priorities. They’re trying to balance that urgent things. Everything might be the same vitalness. They, it all has to be done, but the urgent is created with, uh, Hey, this date, other people are counting on me.
[00:12:41] Speaker 2: Yeah. Um, while you were talking earlier, I was thinking of a, just an example of a team that I was on.
It was a really small team. And our CEO, it was small enough to where we would have daily standups with the CEO, you know, to hold everyone. And so he was really, really, uh, like heavily emphasized, having everyone having integrity, meaning, you know, you, our standups would be like, okay, I’m, I’m going to, I’m going to accomplish this today and what I’m working on gonna accomplish this today.
Then the next day we would report. I got this done, I got this done, or I didn’t get this done and here’s why. And here’s what I’m going to do. And that I hated that starting out. I was like, this is, I just, I don’t need to tell you, I’m just going to work. Right. I hated it, but I found, I just slowly found the value of it because when you commit to your team and other people, you say, you know, I’m, I’m going to do this.
Throughout your day, you’re, you’re, you’re kind of. You’re standing over yourself and you’re that constant. Badger, at least for me, the constant of I’ve got to get this done because, you know, I don’t want to, I don’t want to the next day face my team and say, I didn’t, I went to say I had a great day and this is what I got done.
And that just, I like that daily commitment affirmation from, from like getting that from teams.
[00:14:27] Speaker: I love daily standups. I love the touch. I like the social aspect of saying Hey to people. And having a face and a personality to the name. Um, I’m working with a developer right now, his name’s Sonny. And, um, we did some testing yesterday and found, uh, found a weird bug.
Okay. So, um, we have a variable, uh, to decide what type of game is being created. And, uh, right now there’s like seven different modes. Okay. One through seven. And, uh, Every time I was trying to test game creation for this particular game, it was failing and the error was not helpful. So I got on a call with him and he’s showing me how to get more.
verbose error reporting. Um, and as soon as I did that, I was like, thank you. Okay. I will take over from here because I assumed it was my end. I assumed that it was the backend. And so I’m in there and I’m looking at it and I’ve took an hour to discover that he had hard coded Um, a variable that was supposed to be one through seven, he had hardcoded it to be one when you’re trying to create that type of game one, it, the system just goes, well, I don’t know what to do with that.
So anyway, so, uh, I. Documented it, send it to him. And I love his response. He goes, well, I see that I need to figure out why I would have done that. Because he he’s like, that doesn’t make sense to me. Why would I have hard coded, uh, that in my, in my dev environment, what was it that I was trying to test that that got stuck with anyway, he contacted me this morning and he’s like, Hey, any other tests, any other things that we need to.
Um, uh, work on today. And my response was, uh, I can’t do more testing until you release your fix. Cause, uh, I can’t create a game, so I can’t test a game, but it’s, um, I love that daily. contact. Uh, have you ever had a, what, what’s, if you, if you shift development and product ownership into like your personal life, how do you handle it with your spouse, with your siblings or your parents or your kids?
How do you handle when you’re trying to get stuff done? And they’re not, You’re not there. So as a product owner, you do have, uh, some responsibility and authority to act, right? That’s, that’s your job as a dad. Do you have some authority as a spouse? There’s a balance. You got to be careful.
[00:17:35] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[00:17:35] Speaker: How do you do that in your family?
Um, whether it’s with your siblings, your parents, your kids, your spouse, what, how do you, Try and get things done knowing that you have the skillset of a product owner, but you have to live in a world where you’re not paying people and it hasn’t been declared, Hey, he, this is Mike. He’s going to help us, uh, get this stuff done.
[00:18:02] Speaker 2: Um,
like, I think, like I mentioned before, I’m pretty easy going. And so I, I’m, for me, if someone has, if I have an idea, And I’m like, okay, this is how it should be accomplished. Um, and then someone else is like trying to do something else or my wife or siblings, like, okay, let’s, let’s do this. Um, I mean, I, I will voice my opinion, but ultimately I’m like, I don’t care.
Fine. Let’s, let’s just do it this way. So I’m, I’m pretty flexible. One thing. So my last name is Fleming. And one thing we, the Fleming’s always say is the fun, flexible Fleming’s. We are flexible and we will literally roll with anything my wife can’t, she doesn’t understand, but we could, if we’re meeting a family or someone new.
They like our best friends to us instantly. We embrace them and like whatever, and we can show up to someone’s house, a stranger’s house and just stay the night and not, it doesn’t bother us. Let someone stay with us. So we’re just, we’re like, uh, my wife says that’s weird and that’s not common. And I’m like, what are you talking about?
[00:19:28] Speaker: What, what are the good things that come from that? Uh, what are the good things that come from being that flexible?
[00:19:36] Speaker 2: You don’t worry about anything.
[00:19:38] Speaker: Okay.
[00:19:39] Speaker 2: I don’t stress. I mean, I, we’re like, I’m going through some stressful trials and stuff in life right now. you know, last couple of years have been tough cause jobs and health issues and stuff like that.
And they’ve been stressful, but eventually as you kind of work through it and just time goes on, I always go back to zero and just not stress. That’s cool. What’s the downside?
Um,
it makes it easy to just kind of not progress. You just kind of go back into your normal routine. Yeah. Yeah. And so sometimes, sometimes those, those trials and struggles in life are there to force you to, to change things and, and improve yourself. And if you’re not, you’re just like, Oh, I’ll just adapt, you know, you kind of just go back into your normal routine.
It may not progress enough.
[00:20:51] Speaker: That’s, uh, you know, I have this belief and I don’t know if it’s true, um, but the belief is that every virtue. If taken to an extreme becomes a vice and I know that’s not true. So I guess I should say I have a belief that’s not true because I have a thing that makes it not true.
Compassion. I haven’t figured out how compassion taken to an extreme. is a vice, but everything else that’s a virtue taken to an extreme. I can, I can see how it can become a vice, whether that’s kindness to others where that’s a good thing to be kind to others, but taken to an extreme, uh, you prioritize kindness over other things that are more important.
And. That sort of thing. So, um, okay. So I’m very kind in, um, in how I help, uh, deal with situations. I’m very kind if sometimes though, I have to say no, that’s wrong. And it’s morally wrong and the kind part of me wants to just say, okay, well, to each their own, you’re, I love you. You’re going to be fine. It’s going to be awesome.
And I had a I had a family member who was making some decisions that were horrible and the kind part of me wanted to be friendly and nice and say, Oh yeah, you know, Hey, good for you. But in reality, it wasn’t good for her and it was going to have dire consequences. And so I had to not have kindness be the virtue, uh, the ultimate virtue there and have moral correctness be.
And so in a kind, the kindest way I could, I told her, Hey, I’m going to share, I’m going to share this with you because somebody needs to making those choices are wrong. It’s wrong to make those choices. And the consequences are going to be horrible. Now, fast forward, she continued down those roads, and she was in jail multiple times, then she went to prison, and she’s now out.
And she is really striving to not make it. the same decisions that she made in the past that led to her in car incarceration and her addiction. But at the time I wanted to be just kind and supportive, but I had to actually speak. I had to be truth. So I had to be honest, which was more important than kindness.
And then on the other hand, you have honesty, which is a good virtue, but taken to an extreme can be, can be.
[00:23:51] Speaker 2: You have to be diplomatic.
[00:23:53] Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. By the way, if your spouse asks you, Oh, how’s this outfit? Make, how’s this outfit? Look, uh, too late. Awesome. You, you, you, you lost it already,
[00:24:06] Speaker 2: but, um, so that’s funny.
I was just thinking that that example you gave, so, um, someone I know is in the, is an AA and. Um, and I have talked to, talk to this person, um, a bunch about the exam with like the scenarios and everything. And just, just in that example to me, cause I’ve, I’ve learned so much for this person that, um, I don’t know, this isn’t really add to it, but I just was thinking about it.
Um, those type of people. So you were being nice and ultimately that’s the only thing you could do. Cause that person was not going to change until they hit their own rock bottom. Right. They had to do it. They had to hit rock bottom. I know I have someone, uh, I have some of the same thing and we’re, you know, family and everything.
We’re always trying to get this person to change and they just keep, they keep falling into the same mistakes over and over and over again for years. And you’re just like, and you just talk to this person until you’re blue in the face. At this point though, it’s just that they have to hit their own threshold of, Oh, wow, I’ve screwed things up.
I need to change. There’s nothing you can do about it.
[00:25:45] Speaker: So it’s interesting because when I was talking to her. about the decision she was making. She was at a crossroads. She hadn’t, she was not addicted. She was not, um, so it was early in the journey post that she, she got into all the things she got into and she became addicted.
Um, I’m, I’m a big fan of 12 step programs. I get to participate, uh, with family members and, uh, different neighbors I, I’ve gone to different, uh, meetings and I myself think everybody should go sometimes because it’s so helpful to acknowledge your own weakness and try and make amends and inventory your life.
There’s so many wonderful things in 12 step programs that I think are so beneficial. But, uh, when this was, when she was a teenager and she, um, you know, the, the little things that she was doing were not devastating to her life. It wasn’t like, Oh, should I do drugs? It was, well, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with watching these type of movies.
And I said at the time, I was like, well, you know, I’m much older than you and I don’t know why there’s a rating for that versus this. And she, as a young teenager, Said, Oh, well, because of this, this, and this, it makes it this classification. And because of this, it’s this classification. And I was appalled. I was like, okay, how, how do you know that?
And, you know, um, as she’s choosing to the intake of media that she was choosing, uh, was pretty, pretty, uh, awful. And then. Uh, that, you know, it took her down a path. And yes, that’s like saying everybody who does heroin started off drinking milk. Yes, I get that. It’s, uh, that’s not what I’m saying. Um, but, uh, she was thinking and she was discussing.
Purposely choosing a different standard. And she was purposely at a young age deciding that she wasn’t going to follow the standards as presented to her, um, by those around her. And at the time her, uh, parents were, um, I’m going to say recently divorced, uh, and neither one, uh, they were, uh, I think it was very difficult for them to have moral standards.
with their kids because of the, uh, the natural man, the natural, uh, tendency of a child to work one parent against the other when they’re not united. And it was just such a horrible, awful situation for her. And she was just using it to say, well, I get to choose what I want and neat. They’re not going to say anything because they can’t, because I can just go to the other person’s house and do it.
And you know, I can abuse the freedom that I have because they’re not united. So anyway, all of the, there’s a lot of context there, but you’re right. When someone is in a, when they haven’t hit rock bottom, sometimes you can’t help them, but you can be there for them. And that kindness virtue there, that’s where it comes to fruition, right?
And you don’t have to constantly beat them over the head with honesty saying, well. You’re making awful decisions. Well, sometimes the compulsions are what they are and you got to have some grace and some compassion for them and let them come to decisions on their own because That’s your role. That’s your stewardship.
[00:29:57] Speaker 2: So, Hey, so I have a, I have a kind of a question to elaborate more on this. Um, and we can talk religion and politics. Absolutely.
[00:30:08] Speaker: Yeah.
[00:30:09] Speaker 2: Okay. So, so it made me think of this, these articles that I’ve seen. Um, so the, the LDS people in Utah, church, Jesus Christ, Latter day Saints, um, the politics in Utah, Are becoming very liberal are not becoming, they are very liberal, very left wing, you know, um, bad, evil, evil stuff.
And so, um, the, the people in Utah are, you know, Mormons or LDS people are normally, they’re very nice, right? We’re considered very nice people. Yeah, that’s
[00:30:54] Speaker: a stereotype that seems to be true.
[00:30:58] Speaker 2: So too nice to the point where. They’ve allowed this wickedness to infiltrate their politics. Oh, yeah. Okay, and and I’ve seen I’ve seen stuff where you know, there’s I don’t know if this is really that there was somebody posted a picture of somebody and it was in the Relief Society room and it was a group of Muslims praying in a relief study room and they had in the background they had covered the picture of Jesus Well, and this person was like this is not right.
We need to be mean we need to be more aggressive and I don’t know I just thought I was wondering what your what your take is on that and if in fact Because you know you have you have the title of Liberty. Mm hmm You know, and there’s that example and that was pretty extreme. Um,
[00:31:59] Speaker: well when you say extreme, they, it was, it was, uh, targeted, it was targeted to a war, right?
To, they weren’t in, they were in defense. of their thing. So yes, but the, um, it was an extreme. I’m not moving. This is the line. No more. You guys, you live in your lands. We wouldn’t, we wouldn’t fight you if you guys wouldn’t attack us. Right. It was that attitude.
[00:32:32] Speaker 2: What does that sound like? Yeah, it does. In today’s right now.
Um, well, so that, anyway, is that just, I’ve thought about that of dude, is there going to be a point where members of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints are going to have to become more aggressive?
[00:32:52] Speaker: So recently in, um, I was talking to a coworker, his he’s awesome. Uh, and we were talking about, uh, assertiveness.
Aggression and passive and I think what you’re describing is members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints think that being loving and being kind and being Christlike is to be passive and then those who are on on the other side of that passive instead of being they they think that the opposite of passive is aggressive.
And so they’re almost attacking and it doesn’t feel Christlike. It doesn’t feel the way that our savior would behave in what they’re trying to prevent from occurring. They’re trying to defend what’s right. And I think what’s, what the problem is, is instead of being passive, Or instead of being, um, the opposite of passive being assertive, they’re taking the opposite of passive as aggressive.
And so with, with that distinction between aggression and assertiveness, you can stand your ground and be very assertive without, but be compassionate about it. What was that? But be compassionate. Yeah.
[00:34:23] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[00:34:24] Speaker: And in, uh, that, so my, my belief is In our, the number, so here, here’s my hierarchy of priorities when it comes to religion is number one, everybody gets to choose from themselves, for themselves, including my kids.
My kids are taught my, my spiritual, uh, belief structure. They’re taught that they will get to choose whether or not they’re going to do something different in the future. That’s number one. while they’re in my home, I’m going to teach them everything I know for their good. I’ve had, uh, you know, I have eight kids and I’ve had more than two, um, come to me and say, Hey, I don’t know if I’m going to follow your belief structure.
And I’m like, okay, well let’s talk about it and let’s, let’s figure things out because the, the way that we can tell, even if let’s just pretend that God doesn’t exist in the way that we. We view him and that Jesus Christ didn’t die for you to make you whole again Let’s just pretend that that happened What are the consequences of living a life?
Trying to emulate Jesus christ if he didn’t exist and the consequences of living that life is a joyful faith, uh, enduring life. And what are the consequences of living a different way? Well, the principles are going to work no matter what. So I’ve had these discussions. My kids know that, um, I’m going to maintain a relationship with them.
And I, as their dad, my job is to help them deal with the consequences of their decisions. And I’m going to be there to help them deal with those consequences, but I’m not going to say, well, I’m going to help you kill puppies. Because that’s what you’ve chosen to do. I’m going to help you deal with the consequences that you’ve been killing puppies.
I think killing puppies is wrong. So I will deal with the consequences of that while not embracing the action. So I imagine there will be a shift where we’ll become more assertive. And I’ve seen this across the pulpit when, um, laws have been put it proposed. to, um, hinder the freedom of religion. And the church has been assertive in its declaration of, this is important that we protect other people’s rights to choose what religion they, uh, how they practice religion.
And it’s important for us. So they’re assertive, but they’re not aggressive. They don’t, um, start having people show up and chant. You know, down with prop, you know, 285 down, it’s, it’s not aggressive. It’s assertive and it’s the humble, um, it’s a, it’s a humble meekness that allows us to inherit the earth.
It’s not no action. It’s just a meekness.
[00:37:39] Speaker 2: Yeah. And my, my, uh, concern is that the, the wickedness we’ll see that as weakness. And attempt to, I guess, no matter what, they’re going to fight back, even if you’re aggressive or meek, the outcome from the left or from the, from the wickedness is still wicked.
People are still going to be the same.
[00:38:04] Speaker: Yeah. And I have, um, I have some real tender things in my family where I have relatives who are making choices that, uh, go against the standards that I believe in. Um, I love them and I associate with them. And in fact, I enjoy them. Uh, I, I enjoy being with them. What makes it difficult is at some point, some of them.
So there’s, this is about trans and, um, same gender attraction. And the LBGQ community, and I’m, I know I missed some initials and I apologize. They, um, I apologize to them because that’s the world they live in, right? So, uh, I love them and I enjoy them and I hang out with them. But, uh, some, um, have chosen to, to take a stand that says, if you’re not promoting my lifestyle, you’re against me.
Thank you. Yeah, and that’s such a sad that is such a sad state because I won’t I won’t promote I will love and I’ll defend their rights But not because of a special because they you know, they happen to be X Y or Z I’m not going I want the same rights for them everybody else has And that’s where I have to draw the line.
And unfortunately, I think they have felt that in my non participation in their, uh, social media posts and in their desire to get change to happen in the structures that in the organizations they belong to. I mean, we were all raised in the same, uh, uh, or organization as far as the church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints go.
And my stance is that. I must, if I disagree with the, uh, something that’s coming from God, because I believe that God talks to his prophets today and then they talk to us, it’s the pattern that’s been followed for millennia. I, I choose to, uh, believe that I must not understand something. And so I’m patiently waiting for understanding while I follow that dictate and they want the church to change.
And it’s like, well, take it to a higher level, you know, take it to a, take it to someone else. If you disagree, take it higher. And in fact, you know what have I, I’m going to share this with you. It’s kind of fun. I had a relative who, um. In our family, this was, uh, a while ago, there was a, uh, there was some disagreements about whether or not marriages were valid because the person performing the marriage.
did not have authority or authorization. I should say they didn’t have authorization from the church to, uh, perform the marriage. And so legally from the government standpoint, uh, from the church’s standpoint. And so inside of the, um, uh, so, okay, so here’s the situation, uh, proclamation to the world, uh, the manifesto on plural marriage no longer allowed.
Okay. After that occurred. Marriages continued to happen within the church. Oh,
[00:41:56] Speaker 2: yeah
[00:41:57] Speaker: So it took it took some time for everybody to get behind the the official stance, right? so, um, there’s a segment of the Those marriages wouldn’t be valid. Correct. You would think so, right? So what if they were performed by?
[00:42:23] Speaker 2: So, right?
[00:42:24] Speaker: Right. Well, that’s the contention, okay? So, the,
[00:42:30] Speaker 2: well, I, well, let me ask you, what did you, if, if the prophet says, these are no longer, this is no longer a thing. The church does not do this anymore. This is God said, no more, but then an apostle goes and goes against that. Does
[00:42:54] Speaker: it? Yeah.
[00:42:56] Speaker 2: That. Like him, him going against what God has said, totally invalidates his keys and priesthood, doesn’t it?
Well,
[00:43:05] Speaker: then how did Alma have the priesthood? Where did he get it?
[00:43:11] Speaker 2: How old are you?
[00:43:12] Speaker: He, if there are a bunch of unrighteous priests, where did he get the priesthood to go baptize? Yeah. So authorization is different than authority. Power is different than authority.
[00:43:30] Speaker 2: So they had, they had the. They had, they had the authority, but we’re not authorized.
That’s what
[00:43:40] Speaker: I’m saying.
[00:43:42] Speaker 2: Right. So that’s what I’m saying. It isn’t in the Doctrine and Covenants where it talks about, you know, amen to that, that man,
[00:43:49] Speaker: right. Speaking specifically of unrighteous dominion. Right now, here’s the, the problem. I can’t, the reason I can’t give you what I think is because my answer comes from this letter.
about to read to you from a, this letter was written to my relative by her priesthood leader. Okay. Uh,
[00:44:16] Speaker 2: is
[00:44:16] Speaker: this a ancestor? Yeah, just, uh, this is just an ancestor and we have it in our family history.
[00:44:24] Speaker 2: Okay.
[00:44:24] Speaker: So this is not, this is definitely not church doctrine, but this letter speaks so clearly to my soul.
That I say, amen, hallelujah. That is exactly right. When I don’t understand. So here, here’s the letter. Uh, it says, dear sister priests, your letter of March 7th has been given careful and prayerful consideration in which you ask that certain marriages of women to your father be ratified, which, uh, purported marriages, uh, is claimed were performed by so and so after, uh, president Woodruff issued the manifesto.
Okay.
[00:45:04] Speaker 2: Okay.
[00:45:05] Speaker: Um, according to the family group sheets, which you’ve submitted these and he, he lists a bunch of details. I’m going to skip down. And then,
[00:45:13] Speaker 2: so hold on. So you’re, you’re, your relative is asking the church to validate these marriage. Correct. Okay.
[00:45:21] Speaker: And, uh, she’s going, she’s going up the, you know, the normal chain, right?
Right.
[00:45:27] Speaker 2: Okay.
[00:45:27] Speaker: And then it’s in view. And this is the part that I love and I adore and I adopt it anytime I disagree or don’t understand. In view of all the facts pertaining to this situation, it has been decided that this is a matter that we must leave to the decision of the Lord in the hereafter. Knowing, as we do, that His decisions His decision will be right and just accordingly.
I’m returning all the documentation you submit. Uh, I feel assured that upon careful and prayerful reflection, you will be able to reconcile your feelings. to the wisdom of this decision. Now. So if she still disagreed, what is her proper response? What should she do next? If she still disagrees with that decision?
[00:46:27] Speaker 2: Well, I would tell her, you just need to pray for patience and wait till you’re there for the Lord to decide. Yeah. That I don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater.
[00:46:40] Speaker: I agree. I completely agree. And so that’s my stance with my family on. who are like, well, the church needs to do different. They need to be different in this manner.
And I’m like, well, that’s not for a, I mean, take it to a higher authority, right? Take it to your bishop, your bishop that can’t help you take it to the stake. President stake president can’t help you. Who do you take it to? Right. Right.
[00:47:08] Speaker 2: Authority possible.
[00:47:10] Speaker: Yeah. And they’re going to refer you back to your stake.
Uh, the stake, uh, the priesthood leader who is over the spiritual things, who has the keys of spiritual things, which is your stake president. But this priesthood leader, sincerely your brother, David O. McKay. Number nine. That’s right. So who do you talk to? Above him. You do. You talk to God and you pray and you, you request and you, you bug the Lord to reconcile your feelings with the decision or for the patients to wait for the things to change because in the hereafter, that’s the whole point of having a Lord and Savior who makes us whole.
It’s not just for sin. That’s part of it. Yeah. We’re all fallen, but it’s also to help us deal with the fact that mortality is a state where perfection is not possible. And thus others will injure and hurt us. So if we are going to rely upon Christ’s merits to make us whole, it needs to be both for our own sins and our own decisions and our own omissions, as well as the sins, omissions.
And of other people and the fact that we’re in mortality. So that’s when, when someone wants the church to change, take it to a higher authority and stop bugging the local leaders because they’re going to do, uh, what’s right from where they stand. And if you get them to change, it’s not going to change God’s perspective.
You need to change your perspective or wait for God to issue from the, from higher up how it’s going to be.
[00:49:13] Speaker 2: Yeah, that’s interesting. You know, I, I think kind of talking back to that person that the people, cause I’ve had, I’ve had friends at work and stuff that have claimed that I’ve left the church And it’s because, uh, the church has morally has changed.
[00:49:36] Speaker: Oh, that’s interesting.
[00:49:38] Speaker 2: Right. And you’re like, yeah, no, they haven’t changed. You’ve changed. Um, and I think for, for someone to, to say, why can’t the church change? Why can’t the church change? You know, I think to them. You need to ask them, uh, you know, do you, do you believe in the, in what the church teaches?
Right? So they’re, they want, they want the church to change without, without the commitment to the church. And ultimately it’s like, why do you care if you’re not willing, if you’re not willing to live, what’s been laid out in gospel scriptures, if you’re not willing to follow that, you Then you have no, you have no stake in this.
Why do you care what the church think is, thinks about you? Why do you care?
[00:50:38] Speaker: And yet they get it so passionate. Yeah, and I I don’t I have a hard time reconciling this piece, you know It’s I don’t believe the church is true because true meaning solid correct and whole okay true as in not Actual factual but true as in A true member, uh, a true dam, a dam that is true is solid, right?
Uh, if they don’t believe the church is true. Then why do they want, why do they spend so much of their energy pushing against something they don’t believe is true, solid and, and it’s because, and for, I’ve, as I’ve thought about this, it’s because they want, they want it to be true. They want to belong to something that is whole.
and accurate, et cetera. But the problem is they’re starting from a position that will never allow them to experience that piece that comes with faith in the hereafter faith in the ability to change the church. The church as a structure has changed and it constantly changes. The structure changes all the time.
I mean, elders quorum, uh, elders quorum doesn’t, uh, they’re the high priest group and elders quorum, In an organization is totally different than it was just 10 years ago. The structure is constantly changing. The doctrine doesn’t change.
[00:52:23] Mike: The
[00:52:23] Speaker: administration of the church changes all the time. Wait, be patient.
I, you know, you can’t lobby this. And if you want to have an influence on others, do it with a Christlike attitude. He was submissive as in meek, as he asserted the truth.
[00:52:48] Speaker 2: Right. What’s interesting is that even if, even if the church changed their stance, it would still not be enough. It would leave that person empty.
Yep. Still. I agree. They’d move on to something else. It’s never enough. And it’s like that. not comparing them to anything like that. But I think of, I think of the, uh, the evil spirits and how they got cast out and went into the swine. Yeah. And that was like the best thing. Yeah. Them. Right. It’s It’s never enough.
[00:53:31] Speaker: Yeah. And that’s, um, I’ve been so amazed by some of my relatives who are wrestling with the Lord and they, we have the discussions in our family. They are contemplative. They think they’re trying to Figure things out like we all have to and i’m amazed at some of their Diligence even as they separate themselves from the practices of the church Because they no longer live the lifestyle that allows them to be in good standing They What’s amazing is some of them don’t try to fight against the church.
And I didn’t think that was possible. Um, they don’t try, they have not started to fight against the church. Um, and I thought for the longest time that they, uh, it was going to happen. It was in my mind, I think it was, Oh, you can go, you can stop. If you go into inactivity, that that’s something that happens.
But if you disagree with a fundamental, you have that causes you, gives you the reasons to, to leave that you would then fight against it. And that hasn’t been the case.
[00:55:00] Speaker 2: And I’m, I’m so grateful
[00:55:04] Speaker: that that’s, you know, that there are members who have used to be members and have left the church because they disagree with the practices and they don’t want to live a life that, um, for the, for them, they’re choosing a different path and they’re not fighting.
And I just respect that so much because they’ve chosen to leave. So why? Continued to fight it
[00:55:30] Speaker 2: it. Yeah, that’s pretty rare rare. I think that I agree Right. Most people can’t leave it alone when I think there’s an interesting talk by president or elder, uh, Maxwell. Yeah. You know, he was epic in his talk.
Yeah.
[00:55:49] Speaker: He would say three words and you, okay. I need to think about that for a couple of decades. That guy.
[00:55:56] Speaker 2: Yeah. I think he’d give a talk about how, you know, people leave the church, but they can never leave it alone.
[00:56:03] Speaker: So that’s okay. So there’s a gradient. Cause you know, people who’ve just gone inactive.
They’re not there. They leave the church alone.
[00:56:18] Speaker 2: Uh, yeah, yeah, they do. And, and they, what’s funny though, is that they can’t. But they can’t leave it alone. I know, I know a specific family that, you know, we were, we’re over at their house and they’ve said, they said that, um, you know, we’re leaving the church. It was a big shock, but, um, they still do basketball.
They still do activities, you know, and so,
[00:56:51] Speaker: so perhaps, um, there’s a difference as well because in inactivity, but keeping your names on the rolls of the church, That, that connection, that makes sense, you know, cause everybody, we’re all on a different, we’re, we’re all trying to return to God in theory, right?
That’s what the theory is. Everybody wants to return to God. The reality is we are all, different parts of that path of that headed back to God. And we find ourselves in different places. For a long time, I was inactive. I didn’t engage, um, if you were. Was that you? Yeah. So for a couple years, um, when my daughter Mary was born.
So this, this was 24, 22 years ago. Um, wow. Yeah. Most people don’t realize that. Um,
the, um, yeah. And I, so I guess for me, because I was inactive and I did not engage. In the church for such a I mean, it wasn’t a few weeks. It wasn’t a few months. It was a few years Um, and I didn’t fight against the church. I just tried to not do anything Yeah related and uh, I as I started trying, you know, we talk about hitting bottom.
I didn’t ever hit bottom You know, my life was still pretty good Uh, but I missed the spiritual aspect of things and so I um You The guy who, his name is, uh, Scott, uh, and I won’t use his last name because he’s, he’s a dentist here in the, in my Valley, but he was my home teaching companion and he, his, he was assigned basically all part member families.
And we were assigned together and he would call me up. I didn’t go to church. But he would call me up and say, Hey Cameron, Scott here. Gonna go to visit the, this family and this family today. Can I come by and pick you up? And I’d be like, uh, okay. And we’d go and we’d have this great, wonderful discussion and I’d feel uplifted and I’d feel good and I’d go home and then I’d go back to my inactivity.
And I, and I would be like, you know, I used to feel that way a lot more. And so Scott through his, Oh, and when I tell him, no, he’d be like, okay, I’ll call you next time. Right. And I’d be like, okay. So yeah, and so over the course of, uh, six, seven months, I started, uh, participating with him and then I started teaching the gospel principles class.
And then I was like, you know, I want to be more spiritual. So we moved out of that word, moved to a different word. And I was like, I want to be more spiritual. I want to have. what I used to feel. I want that all the time. And I went to a, I started going to church bare minimum. And this guy named Jeff, his last name’s Wilcox, Jeff Wilcox.
Uh, I will use his name because you know, he’s not a dentist or a doctor or somewhere, you know, but he would, he taught a elders quorum lesson and he talked about sins of omission, sins of commission. And he said, you know, most of us here, we have a few sins of commission that we need to work on. But the majority of our issues have to do with sins of omission that we, that which we should do that we don’t do.
Versus things that we shouldn’t do and do. And he said, I challenge you to start to engage and say yes to all the invitations that have to do with the, uh, with good things in the church. And so I was like, you know what, I’m going to do that. And so. I would ask to be do something. I would say yes. And then I’d go and do it.
I’d asked to be something else. Yes. And then I became more spiritual started to be mindful of God, not prayerful, but mindful. And my life progressively got better and better so much so that, you know, a couple moves later when I tell someone, Oh yeah, I used to be an active day. You know, they’re, Oh, what?
We’re like, Oh yeah. So I’m fine with people who are at a different path cause I used to be that guy who didn’t engage, who wouldn’t go do anything. Yeah. So, but I never, so,
[01:02:00] Speaker 2: right. Well that, yeah, that’s interesting. How much time do we have? We’re
[01:02:05] Speaker: probably at time, but what do you got?
[01:02:09] Speaker 2: Uh, I, so I don’t know if this person will see this iPod, this podcast or not.
Uh, I, so I have a really close acquaintance friend. Really good, really good friend. And we were over at their house and right before we left, he’s, he said, I’m, I’ve left the church and not just recently, it’s been like 10 years. And I was like, what? And you’re the one that got me converted. Like you, you were, you were the prime example.
And it’s pretty wild to me to think that this person, um, and he, he doesn’t fight, you know, his fat, his wife is still active and he doesn’t fight against it, but he’s taken the stance of stoicism at, which is Marcus Aurelius was kind of their biggest advocate. Stoicism is basically living a life of virtue.
which is strange to me. You know, I, I’m like, I’m curious to see how that person got to that point because you’re, you’re basically living it. So what was it? He just doesn’t believe in God. He didn’t just leave the church. It’s because he doesn’t believe in God.
[01:03:35] Speaker: Yeah.
[01:03:35] Speaker 2: That makes sense. Which is, which is wild to me.
Um, I can’t imagine ever thinking that way. You know, I’ve been through a lot of stuff and to me, it’s like, if you don’t believe in that, what’s the point?
[01:03:51] Speaker: Yeah.
[01:03:52] Speaker 2: What’s the point of continuing on with any sort of responsibility, right?
[01:03:59] Speaker: Well, I can, I’ve actually done the mental exercises because I questioned whether God existed too.
Yeah. So, um, there you can still have joy. You can still have moments of joy and happiness and pleasure in mortality. It’s not as if not believing
[01:04:22] Speaker 2: you can’t, right?
[01:04:24] Speaker: You can’t. But you have to ask yourself, where does that come from? That’s the thing. There’s a law irrevocably decreed that every blessing is tied to a principle of obedience, something like that, right?
There’s a scripture. And that is true whether or not you believe in the law. It’s not a, it’s um, it’s not, it doesn’t require belief. To get the effect,
[01:04:57] Speaker 2: right? It’s people who believe that the earth is flat. They can believe that all they want, but that doesn’t make it so.
[01:05:04] Speaker: Oh yeah. We could talk for ages on that.
Have we talked about flat flatter?
[01:05:09] Speaker 2: No, I would love to talk more about that though. Cause I bet that fascinates me that people get to the point.
[01:05:16] Speaker: Okay. Next time let’s talk about the, what is required to become a flat earther and what, how, how we. Who believe the earth is round globalists or global or spherists, whatever they call it.
Round
[01:05:35] Speaker 2: round round
[01:05:35] Speaker: these. I like that one. How sometimes we are flirthers, furthers in different ways, right? We believe things that are not true, but it’s because we’re relying upon something.
[01:05:49] Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that’d be curious. That’d be interesting.
[01:05:51] Speaker: I’m going to ask Elizabeth set up another one of these. All right, super.
Thanks, Mike. We’ll talk to you soon.
[01:05:57] Speaker 2: I did. Thanks. Bye.